I just joined-My Quaker tested postitive for aspergillus

[Debz_Crew]

This is my very first post, I just now joined. I have been reading for the last few days and there are so many caring knowledgable people here.

I have been trying to get a diagnosis for my Quaker, Dixie. She is 2 1/2 years old and is my joy. I love her so much.
Several weeks ago she was diagnosed with a respiratory infection after I noticed some tail bobbing and was put on Baytril. It seemed to help at first, then she had what I thought was a reaction to it. Her breathing became more labored on the Baytril. I took her back to the Vet and graim stains were fine. Her lungs sounded fine. My Vet did a psittacosis test and an aspergillus titer. I just called and the results of the aspergillus is positive. She has it. I'm so upset. She still has some slight tail bobbing, from time to time, and now I know why. She has always been such a strong healthy bird. I am waiting for the Vet to call me back (I spoke with the receptionist when I called earlier).

All I can do is cry at this point, from what I've read there are so many mixed results treating it and keeping it from coming back. I know it's in the air, but we had a hot water tank leak a while back and I'm afraid there are mold spores growing in here, in the walls, somewhere?

Does anyone have a bird that has had aspergillus and recovered completely? I've read that nebulization is the best way to treat it? I also have 2 budgies that I am going to have tested. I so hope they don't have it also.

Sorry to jump right in with all of this with my very first post...I just wanted to talk with someone who understands that she's not "just a bird" and how these little ones become so much a part of your heart.

I can't believe this. I knew something was wrong with her.

Debbie

[Chrissy and Flock]

I am so sorry to hear that Debbie, I don't know anything at all about he illness but someone will be along soon with some good advice for you... just know you and your birdies will be in my prayers....

[Debz_Crew]

The receptionist just called back, the Vet said she wants to wait for the rest of the test (I don't know how many parts are to an asper. titer?) to see what range (?) it's in before she starts treatment?

I wanted to talk to the Vet myself, but the receptionist told me the Vet said to tell me she'd call when all the tests were in. They said it could be tomorrow...it was a week Tuesday since she had the blood draw.

I'm not patient at all right now. :confused:

[Uncle]

Debz,

I can't help you in that area --- but I just now sent out the red-flag alert.

We have long time bird owners as well as breeders here that might be able to give you some insight.

[Birdlover]

I know of someone who went through this and her bird is happy and healthy now. I will see if I can get her over here to share with you what she went through. It is treatable. Is your vet an avian vet (or board certified)? I am surprised they wouldnt want to start treatment right away.

[Julie]

Debz,

So sorry to hear about your little Quake, and although I do not have any expertise to help you with this, I'm sure you will get more info/help soon.

:hugz:

[Spinnergirl]

Debbie I rarely post but I did get a message from Jill (Birdlover) asking me to come and take a look at this thread.

I just want you to know i went through Asperg with my Pionus. They can make it, they absolutely can. Apples lungs were soo bad and my vet had really given him his last rights one night when I left him. The next morning he was eating a piece of papaya I left for him during a visit. We all cried!

Anyways it does involve nebulizer treatments, he was in a small plastic tote during his treatment. I rented the nebulizer from the clinic itself. We did a treatment 3 times a day for 3 months then tapered off. But it worked. Well along the way we did have to hand feed him. Ugh it was soo hard, so so hard. Just HAD TO keep food in him I weighed him 3 times a day, so get a digital food scale.The vet said that was the number one thing is to get food into him, the meds won't work without fuel for the body. I got preached that so much..it is all coming back to me now! lol

Anyways my avian vets worked with Dr Burkett out east to come up with a nebulizer concotion.

I know you don't know me, but please feel free to call me at (414) 350-4025 my name is Kristy and if I don't answer please leave a message.

Your birdy can make it.

[too&me]

It sounds like this has been caught before it took over. Don't panic get an air purifier and wait for the rest of the results. I recently lost a Quaker but not from anything respiratory so I do know what wonderful little guys they are & how they steal your heart. Here is a link to some helpful information. Remember take a deep breath & think positive and keep us informed, we will help you as much as we can & hold your e-hand.
www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1829&articleid=2384 - 29k -

[Spinnergirl]

BTW Asperg is everywhere, it exists all over the place.
Birds get it when stressed or ill.
People can even get it when there immune systems are a mess.

[Birdlover]

Yep, that is very true. My mom lost a meyers Parrot to Aspergillosis. We didnt know he had it until the necropsy. I was worried for their African grey (who lived in the same room) and the vet said there was no need to worry. Asper is everywhere. You do your best to minimize exposure (no in-shell peanuts, no corncob bedding, etc) and having good hygeine practices is the best you can do.

Of course if you suspect mold in your home I would definitelly have that checked out for your own health as well as your birds.

[Birdlover]

This is a good article on Aspergillosis too - it is older but lots of good info:
http://www.parrotchronicles.com/julyaugust2003/aspergillosis.htm

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

I'm so sorry to hear about your quaker. I have one too and he's just a joy. Check out the new Birdtalk May issue. There's an article an article covering aspergillosis.

Patty

[Don]

Hi Debbie, I have never had a bird with asper, fortunately, but I have heard of many successfully treated.

You need an avian vet with experience and you'll need to follow the instructions to the letter - but it's worth it - wish you the best of luck, and keep us posted.

Don
donsbirds.com

[Debz_Crew]

Thank you all for responding. The Vet I went to isn't Avian Certified, but has experience. I am going to make an appt. with one a couple of hours from here who worked with Dr. Stahl for several years after she graduated. I have heard of Dr. Burkett, I think he is about 3 hours from here. I may just make an appt. and go to him.

I want to answer each of you individually, I need to get my birdies in the bed. I will be back on in a bit.

Knowing it can be succesfully treated makes me feel so much better.

My boyfriend has already said he WILL NOT help me with the treatments (money wise) and WILL NOT help with anything I pay around here until she gets better, that if I can't pay what I usually pay around here I can "get out"...yep, that's what he said. So, I am most likely looking at moving back in with my parents until I can get her well, and save for my own place. Never thought I'd have to move back home at my age, but I will do whatever it takes to get her well. I asked him to please fix that floor and leak long before he did. I bet there are lots of aspergillus spores in here from the leak that was left for so long. Sorry to rant about him, just can't believe someone can be so cold and cruel. Better to find out now than after a marriage.

I'll be back on later. Thank you (((((all))))) so much!

Kristy, I will call you in a bit. Thank you so much for posting your phone #!

Debbie

[Chrissy and Flock]

You got that right girl....like you say better to find out now than after marraige...

[Don]

Debbie - with friends like him you certainly don't need any detractors - I say get while the getting is good - for you and your bird ! does he know where the couch is ? What a selfish SOB!

Don
donsbirds.com

[birdscomefirst]

Hi,

I am sorry that your quaker may be going through this but as was said earlier, they can make it. I am going to offer several pieces of advice and since there is not a lot of detail yet, maybe some of this will help and maybe some of it wont.

The first thing to do is read page one of the following thread. It is truly important with respect to enlightening some on a choice of vets. Particularly read posts # 5, 6 and 7.

http://www.happybirdy.com/mainforum_happybirdy_com/showthread.php?t=941

With respect to the rest of this, some may apply and some may not as I don't know your precise situation as far as cage set up and such.

Aspergillosis in birds is a fungal infection that most often effects the pulmonary system but can effect other parts of the bird as well. In cases caught later in the course of the infection, lesions can be found throughout a birds body including the brain.

Here is a brief but good page with some information on Apergillus and Aspergillosis.

http://www.plannedparrothood.com/articles/aspergillosis.html

You can do an internet search and scare yourself to death by reading all the accounts of problems with aspergillosis.

While it is serious, It can be treated. The treatments described in the article above are quite good.

Aspergillus, is indeed everywhere. Things to be aware of is that it can be found in cages if things like crushed walnut shells are used at the bottom of the cage. It grows in materials like that. There is no good material to use in the bottom of a cage other than newspaper. Many people will disagree with that but the fact is that newspaper, changed once or twice each day is the best and safest thing to use in the bottom of a cage. So...if you use anything in the bottom of the cage besides newspaper, it is advisable to switch to newspaper so that as you are treating the bird, you will not reinfect it. You should also carefully clean all the toys in the cage and the cage itself with a mixture of vinegar and water. You also should have your bird in a cage that has a grate on the bottom so that the bird cannot get to the debris at the bottom of the cage.

Peanuts, grow in the ground and the shells can be contaminated with aspergillus as it is extremely common in soil. So...eliminate peanuts in the shells if you are feeding them to your quaker.

Another excellent article can be found at the following link. Some of what is there may help.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1829&articleid=2384

As mentioned in both articles, one of the preferred antifungal medications is itraconazole. That medication or one of the others on the list should be prescribed.

It is also important to say that there are a few tests that in combination will rule in or rule out aspergillosis. It is often misdiagnosed so you really have to stay on top of things to be sure that you are actually treating the bird for what it actually has. Please be sure that you fully read the part of the previous article that pertains to diagnosis.

Do not be afraid to ask your vet questions. Some birds will die because they are being treated for one thing while the real problem is left undiagnosed.

Above all, if it is acute Aspergillosis, it is treatable and the treatments do work.

Again, I want to mention that I am using a "shotgun" approach with this post as I don't know how you have your cage set up or what you are feeding your bird.

Thanks and please keep us in the loop. We are here to help.

PS: It seems like a good time to dump the boyfriend. If he has that little regard for what you care about he isn't worth it.

[bonnie]

Welcome to HB Deb. So glad you came here. we are very loving and care for you and your bird. I hope all goes well. Keep us posted. You are in my thoughts.

[FoxersArtist]

Great big hugs for you Debbie. We do understand that your quaker is not just a bird and not just a pet but your baby. I would be so heartbroken in your situation and can't tell you how sorry I am. Thankfully some birds can make a remarkable recovery, so all hope is not lost. I worked with a parrotlet who had aspergillus last year. When he got to me, he was tail bobbing and gasping for air. You could hear the air sacs in his lungs pop as he gasped for air. Even in that condition he did recover. gave him some holistic medication...though I don't recall what, that a friend had suggested. All things are possible! Hang in there.
-Anna

[Anne-Samantha's Mom]

oh dear so sorry to hear your little guy is ill...I know absolutely nothing about it but just thought I would offer my good thoughts and prayers...hugs

[too&me]

Good for you to not only get the inside scoop on Mr. Selfish but you have gained an entire new group of good friends..and it took your birdy buddy to help you discover that. Looking forward to his healing and sharing the good times as well as the scary ones.

[Debz_Crew]

Thank you all, again. Sorry I didn't get back online last night. I was so tired and crashed out on the couch.

The Vet called today after she consulted with Dr. Stahl, who is a very respected certified avian vet in VA. She said Dixie's asper level is .6 and a .7 is positive. So it's very close. Dr. Stahl wants me to have her WBC checked and not treat at this point until there is a definite diagnosis? This is all so confusing to me. He wants to know what her WBC is, to see if her body is fighting it, I guess for a definitive diagnosis? The Vet I took her to said they want to know for sure what they're treating before they put them on meds that can be so hard on their body. With her occasional tail bobbing and sometimes acting like she doesn't feel her normal energetic self, I wish someone could tell me something more sure. Her WBC was normal several weeks ago. From what I understand it can go up and down with asper. I'm going to make an appt. with a specialist and make the drive. It's about 3 hours from here, but it's worth it.

The boyfriend now says he'll help me, by taking over the bills I usually pay around here (some of the household things) so I can have her treated and do what I need to do for her. He said I "slammed" him, blaming him, when he came thru the door yesterday evening, because of the leak and he said he was being defensive. I was so upset and took it out on him. I'm still not happy with him, and that it took him so long to fix that floor. I really think that's where the aspergillus spores are coming from. I'm going to have to get her and the budgies out of here until the air can be tested.

Jill, thank you so much for contacting Kristy! I was so frantic last night I forgot to thank you!

She is quiet today, not saying much. Her droppings have been smaller than normal also, even though she's eating well and hasn't lost any weight. She stays around 101 grams consistently.
I'm so worried since no one can tell me anything for sure and they don't want to treat yet. Not even the specialist she consulted with wants to treat yet. What am I suppose to do? I guess just wait and see? That is so hard.

Thanks for the links that were posted. I'm going to read those now. Thanks also for all your thoughts and prayers.

Debbie

[Debz_Crew]

Anna, could you find out the name of the holistic treatment that was used? I belong to holistic bird group and read that hiitake (sp) mushrooms are sometimes used. I think I'll make a post on there also about the readings etc. I'm so glad your parrotlet is ok now!

[Evelyn]

I respect a vet who just doesn't start throwing meds without knowing what is really wrong. That could be more dangerous in the long run than withholding treatment temporily.

I do think you ar doing the right thing to take her to an avian certified vet.

Keep us posted. In the meantime, we'll help you worry. :smiles:

Evelyn

Thank you all, again. Sorry I didn't get back online last night. I was so tired and crashed out on the couch.

The Vet called today after she consulted with Dr. Stahl, who is a very respected certified avian vet in VA. She said Dixie's asper level is .6 and a .7 is positive. So it's very close. Dr. Stahl wants me to have her WBC checked and not treat at this point until there is a definite diagnosis? This is all so confusing to me. He wants to know what her WBC is, to see if her body is fighting it, I guess for a definitive diagnosis? The Vet I took her to said they want to know for sure what they're treating before they put them on meds that can be so hard on their body. With her occasional tail bobbing and sometimes acting like she doesn't feel her normal energetic self, I wish someone could tell me something more sure. Her WBC was normal several weeks ago. From what I understand it can go up and down with asper. I'm going to make an appt. with a specialist and make the drive. It's about 3 hours from here, but it's worth it.

The boyfriend now says he'll help me, by taking over the bills I usually pay around here (some of the household things) so I can have her treated and do what I need to do for her. He said I "slammed" him, blaming him, when he came thru the door yesterday evening, because of the leak and he said he was being defensive. I was so upset and took it out on him. I'm still not happy with him, and that it took him so long to fix that floor. I really think that's where the aspergillus spores are coming from. I'm going to have to get her and the budgies out of here until the air can be tested.

Jill, thank you so much for contacting Kristy! I was so frantic last night I forgot to thank you!

She is quiet today, not saying much. Her droppings have been smaller than normal also, even though she's eating well and hasn't lost any weight. She stays around 101 grams consistently.
I'm so worried since no one can tell me anything for sure and they don't want to treat yet. Not even the specialist she consulted with wants to treat yet. What am I suppose to do? I guess just wait and see? That is so hard.

Thanks for the links that were posted. I'm going to read those now. Thanks also for all your thoughts and prayers.

Debbie

[Birdlover]

Thanks for the update Debbie :) And no need to thank me... we're all in this together :) Im glad you'll be going to see the specialist... hopefully you will get more answers. I agree with not wanting to throw medications at a bird without knowing what you are treating, but the wait and see approach concerns me too. As with any illness, the sooner you can start the treatment, the better. Have they done any xrays on your quaker? I know with Kristy's Apple Pi they could see the extent of the damage on the xrays. Its not always the case for a definite answer, but another good tool to use.

[FoxersArtist]

give me a little bit of time and i will e-mail the friend who suggested those treatments and let you know. If you don't hear from me soon, remind me. I have a lot rattling around in my head right now.
-Anna
Anna, could you find out the name of the holistic treatment that was used? I belong to holistic bird group and read that hiitake (sp) mushrooms are sometimes used. I think I'll make a post on there also about the readings etc. I'm so glad your parrotlet is ok now!

[Debz_Crew]

Hi Evelyn, it helps so much to have all of you with me thru this. :hugz:

Hi Jill, she had x-rays several weeks ago, one view was light the second view was dark. The vet said if both had been light that air sac disease would have been suspected, and that the lighter view could have been when Dixie was exhaling.

I have an appt. for Tuesday for Dixie to see Dr. Janice Raab, who worked with Dr. Stahl after graduation and has extensive bird experience. The vet tech I talked to said she would talk further to Dr. Raab about Dixie and she or Dr. Raab will call me back this evening. I may take her in on Monday, an emergency drop off, if Dr. Raab thinks that's best. It's just hard to drop a bird off with a Vet you've never seen before. Would waiting until Tuesday make that much difference?

Has anyone in VA ever been to Dr. Raab? Either where she is now, in Charlottesville, or when she was one of Dr. Stahl's associates in Vienna? I talked with her a while back about Dixie, had made an appt to take her in, then Dr. Raab had a death in her family and was out for a while. She sounded very knowledgable.

Debbie

[birdscomefirst]

Hi,

I am going to add a little advice here. I have a hard time with the idea of throwing out the concept of holistic medicine when dealing with a bird that has not been completely diagnosed yet. Particularly if it is aspergillosis.

Also, if it is indeed aspergillosis, a bird in a weakened state is more prone to becoming more ill. Holistic concepts may or may not work, they may or may not be the right remedy for what the bird really has. Holistic approaches can actually weaken a birds system since there is really no science behind the approach. The possibility of weakening the birds system with holistic remedies is exactly what can make this worse if it is indeed aspergillosis.

If it is what is known as acute aspergillosis, not to be confused with chronic aspergillosis, the medications provided by a vet work very well. There is no way to know what a holistic remedy will do with respect to how it will effect the medicinal properties of the medication used to treat the fungus, if it is decided that the bird has aspergillosis to begin with. To put it simply, you can kill your bird with holistics.

Please keep in mind that holistic medicines do one of two things. They either do something and that can be harmful since the effects are no more than guesswork. OR.. They do nothing and that is useless.

It is using plants and herbs to basically apply untested guesswork as a way to practice healing or medicine in a way that is truly untested with birds. It is all stuff that is passed from one person to another to another. You only hear about situations where a bird came out OK, probably due to normal veterinary treatment. You never hear about the birds that die from these treatments as they do not further the cause of holistics.

I can't urge you more to forget about holistics with birds. They can do more harm than good.

I am sorry of this ruffles feathers here, but this is too important to sit on.

Thanks,
Bill

[Evelyn]

Hi Evelyn, it helps so much to have all of you with me thru this. :hugz:

Hi Jill, she had x-rays several weeks ago, one view was light the second view was dark. The vet said if both had been light that air sac disease would have been suspected, and that the lighter view could have been when Dixie was exhaling.

I have an appt. for Tuesday for Dixie to see Dr. Janice Raab, who worked with Dr. Stahl after graduation and has extensive bird experience. The vet tech I talked to said she would talk further to Dr. Raab about Dixie and she or Dr. Raab will call me back this evening. I may take her in on Monday, an emergency drop off, if Dr. Raab thinks that's best. It's just hard to drop a bird off with a Vet you've never seen before. Would waiting until Tuesday make that much difference?

Has anyone in VA ever been to Dr. Raab? Either where she is now, in Charlottesville, or when she was one of Dr. Stahl's associates in Vienna? I talked with her a while back about Dixie, had made an appt to take her in, then Dr. Raab had a death in her family and was out for a while. She sounded very knowledgable.

Debbie

Hey, fellow Virginian! I'm in Roanoke in SW Virginia.

I didn't know there was more than one avian certified vet in Virginia--Dr. Olkowski in Fishersville. I take my birds there if it is anything other than routine stuff. He saved a bird that was attacked by another bird and who was in shock. She shouldn't be alive, but she recovered. I trust him completely where birds are concerned.

I haven't heard of Dr. Raab, but that doesn't mean she isn't good.

Evelyn

[Debz_Crew]

Hi Bill, I agree, I'm glad you brought this up, very good point! :) (no feathers ruffled here ;))... holistic things shouldn't be used unless there is something to back it up. Like with Milk Thistle for liver disease. I had a rescue Tiel one time who had liver disease and he recovered using the MT and Dandelion. The Vet at the time told me how much to use. Some of the other things I've read about, holisticly, I would only use after asking a Vet about it, a Vet who knows about those types of things and very few Vets do, I think. I would never give any of my birds anything like that and fore go traditional medicine, it's too much of a risk.

Hi Evelyn...close neighbor! I'm not too far from you, near Bedford. I grew up in Roanoke. Dr. O is the one who told me about the Milk Thistle for the Tiel I had. When I first got them I took them to him and he said he doesn't rely much on gram stains, that blood work tells him more. I'm all for blood work, but I have a hard time "giving up" gram stains, I'm so use to a Vet doing them. :) I've also used Dr. Marx in Blacksburg, the home Vet. I think he's really! good. He can do blood work and grams stains, but refers out for other procedures (x-rays, etc). If you have a lot of birds he's a lot cheaper than going into an office for routine care. He'll see them all at once for the same price...(his driving time and so much per hour at the home). I wish he had an office. He's great for after hours and weekends, when no avian Vet is on call in Roanoke.

[Birdlover]

My vet doesnt rely on gram stains either. If he feels there is a concern, we just jump straight to a culture & sensitivity. We always do a full CBC & Bile Acids for bloodwork too. It is pricey but certainly worth jumping right to what will give the best answers.

I have done plenty of drop-off appointments and they do work well to get in sooner... though I would feel odd not meeting the vet first also. (but it is good that they do work together).

Have they discussed with you what they will do if they dont treat for Aspergillosis? Are they doing anything for you bird in the meantime? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand why they wouldnt start treating with definite signs of a respiratory problem. Hugs & prayers for you and your birdie.

[Birdlover]

Debbie, any update on how your little Quaker is doing? I hope everything is okay and that your vet check tomorrow goes well.

[Debz_Crew]

Hi Jill, she seems fine to me, I haven't noticed any more of the slight tail bobbing, she is eating well and has not lost any weight. I did go today to get the records of what the other vet did and the aspergillus showed .6. And at the bottom of that page, from that lab, it said ...'a positive result is considred anything greater than or equal to .7.' And, it also said 'for best diagnostic interpretation use the combined results of the asper. panel-antibody, glactomannan and EPH'.

She also made notes that Dr. Stahl, the certified vet she consulted with, said to do a CBC and if that was equal to or greater than 30,000, then treat. So, what it boils down to, she didn't know to check the WBC, do an EPH and check antibodies and antigens (I don't know the difference between those) when checking for asper. I wish she had known to do that, we would have a more definite answer by now. I so wish I had not taken her there, I wish I had drove to far northern va while waiting for Dr. Raab to return from the death in her family.
But, tomorrow I will no something more definite, hopefully. Oh gosh I hope it doesn't take long to get the blood work back. Hopefully an in house can be done along with the blood they send out, for the WBC. Yes, this vet use to be one of Dr. Stahl's associates and has extensive bird experience. Dr. Stahl had also told the other vet to do a bile acid (the liver may be affected w/ asper?)...she didn't tell me any of that part, she only told me about the WBC, I had to read the rest!!!... I think if she's going to call herself a specialist, then she should specialize! go back to school!....and know what she is doing! right off the bat! I'm not happy with her at All! :mad:

whew, sorry for the rant, but that is my baby's life!


Thanks for checking on us! I'll let you all know when I get back tomorrow evening what I found out. It may be late, I am her last appt. (so she cn have more time with us) and have a 2 hour drive back.

Debbie

[Birdlover]

Debbie I can certainly understand your frustration! Im sure you will get a better feel for the direction to go with your vet appointment today. It is certainly worth it by the sounds what you just posted. And I agree with the fact it is worth it to do all those tests right off the bat. You get faster answers and its money well spent to do the more comprehensive testing right away. Odds are with a sick bird you'll end up doing them anyway, so its easier on the cash flow to get right to it and not have all the little stuff on top of it. Not to mention time is critical when they are showing signs of being sick.

Looking forward to hearing about your visit. Take care and if you are too tired when you get back, there is always tomorrow :)