Why The Bite...

[Wanda and Flock]

[quote=Dot;8326]Diane is the writer/ instigator, not me. Besides, Fergie took such a large DNA sample ...quote]


Dolly removed an entire dime sized tissue sample, complete with bloodwork from Dave today. He barely even looked at her half crazy and I showed HIM the chicken in the freezer! I then politely excused myself to go watch "Snapped" *L*

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Wanda - what lead up to the bite?

[Wanda and Flock]

Ummm..he was within reach? He wasn't really paying attention and she leaned over and bit him. I think she gets protective at night or something. She has always been a bit nippy toward Dave... Maybe she thinks he's in her space. Every time it has happened, it's been a "sneak" attack, when he's not paying attention and get close enough to her, she bites. If I am holding her, she will lean over so far -almost falling off to try to reach him and if he turns and catches her, she starts showing like she wasn't up to anything. Now, if he'd keep his hand still, even watching her, she'd still do it. She tried to bite him the other night when we were watching TV. He was under the cover and she was sitting on the bed next to me. She raised her crest and made a quick dash for his face. He managed to get the pillow over his face so she lunged for the pillow. And then she came back to mine and rubbed her beak all over it...like telling him my pillow is hers and he is too close...?

[Larry, Baby and Me]

We have had two bites in the last couple days. Fergie bit Dot and Dolly bit Dave.

It is important that we all learn from other's experiences so our birds can live better lives with us - and we become safer as well.

Wanda - I hope you don't mind, I moved your post to this thread because it was buried where it was.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Bites do not take place in isolation. To fully understand what led up to the bite and perhaps prevent future bites of the same nature... we have to step the clock back a few ticks and see what went on prior.

Wanda - please tell us the events (in detail) an hour before the bite and the events up to the bite.

[FoxersArtist]

I have some opinions about this since I have seen Dave with the birds first hand but at the same time I don't want to get in trouble for saying the wrong thing! Wanda, if you would prefer to hear my opinion off board rather than here, just let me know...otherwise I would be happy to share the insight I have.
-Anna
-Anna

[Wanda and Flock]

Go ahead because I don't know.

[Wanda and Flock]

When I go get Dolly, she will start leaning her body toward the door. She looks for Dave. Once she sees he is not in the living room, she relaxes. If I pick her up and head toward the bedroom, she start leaning toward the bedroom door or trying to peer around corners. Once she spots him, she starts hissing at him. Now, if Dave can pick her up, she will let him pet her....until she catches him off guard and then she'll bite him. She seems to only bite at night time..that's the only thing that I can think of that may help us. If we are on the bed, Dave is not allowed on the bed. He simply got too close to her cage and got nailed. He was within reach.... She is usually looking to bite him.... and if she gets the chance, she does it. But she is aware when he's aware. He keeps trying though.

[bonnie]

If we are on the bed, Dave is not allowed on the bed.


I don't understand this statement. Are you saying you do not allow Dave in the bed if Dolly is in the bed or that you think it would help to not allow Dave in the bed if Dolly is in the bed?

[Wanda and Flock]

I don't understand this statement. Are you saying you do not allow Dave in the bed if Dolly is in the bed or that you think it would help to not allow Dave in the bed if Dolly is in the bed?

We watch TV sometimes in our room. If Dolly is with me watching TV and Dave tries to sit down or lay down to watch, Dolly goes after him. Heck, if I get up and he tries to sit on the bed, she goes after him. He is not allowed on the bed if she's on the bed- according to her actions. She keeps him off by trying to bite him

[bonnie]

There are some places birds should not be allowed. Chicken is not allowed on my shoulder or on the back of the couch. In my opinion, being allowed these places is a privelage, not a right. There are some instances in which a bird can prove they are not responsible enough to be allowed in these situations. I know that Dolly and Dave have somewhat of a bad history, but it is his bed... Maybe Dolly should not be allowed in it?

[too&me]

It sounds like a game that reinforces her bad habit of biting Dave, if I were Dave I might be resentful too. Perhaps a change of evening routines to avoid these expected behaviors would be good for everybody involved.

[Wanda and Flock]

And we have stopped letting her on the bed. But, she still bites him when she gets a chance. The question is why or to explain what has happened prior to the bites. So, I did. The minute he turns his head or she thinks he is not paying attention, she nails him...it does not matter where we are. On the couch, in the bed, in the aviary -if he passes too close...anywhere. I don't know that I see anything in particular that sets her off -except him. Couldn't it be that simple? I mean, he has hit her...I'm sure she has not forgotten that. To me, he is lucky she even lets him touch her at all. Although I have forgiven him, she hasn't. That's what I think.

Anna, what were you going to say?

Bonnie, doesn't chicken have a problem with your mom? Does chicken just lunge for her when he gets a chance or does something happen that leads up to the bite? That's what we're trying to figure out.

Dolly actually looks for Dave...she leans soooo far forward, I think she is going to fall. She actually "clears" the room before she will relax sometimes.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Here is a true story of little Timmy and Daisy the Amazon parrot...

The family had Daisy long before Timmy was born. Of course the family dynamics changed a bit when Timmy arrived even though the parents tried their best to accommodate both the bird and their newborn.

Things went along well until Timmy became a toddler. Like all small children - Timmy would play on the floor with his favorite toys while Daisy was in her cage. At times Timmy would run his toy car into the leg of Daisy's cage. Each time Timmy crashed his car - Daisy would get startled and jump. Timmy's mom did her best to keep him from banging Daisy's cage - but nevertheless he continued.

When Timmy was about four, his mom thought Daisy could be out of her cage while Timmy was in the house. Daisy was a polite bird and never bothered Timmy. She would sit nicely on her perch until no one was looking, climb down to the floor, go from room to room searching for little Timmy. When she found him - she gave him a bite.

This routine continued for many years until finally Timmy went off to college. When he came home for visits... Daisy would sit nicely on her perch until no one was watching, climb down to the floor, go from room to room searching for Timmy and bite him.

Moral --- birds have a long memory... and they do get even!

[Wanda and Flock]

It sounds like a game that reinforces her bad habit of biting Dave, if I were Dave I might be resentful too. Perhaps a change of evening routines to avoid these expected behaviors would be good for everybody involved.

Whoaaaa...wait a minute. This is supposed to be to try to figure out why she bites Dave and the events that lead up to the biting.

"Expected behaviors"? So should I not let him in the aviary, or her in the living room or make sure they never pass by each other? This is not an expected behavior! If it was that simple, it wouldn't raise the question. Not that I asked the question anyway, I was making a statement about DNA and tissue samples. There's no question in my mind why she bites him...HE HIT HER. Period. She bites when he least expects it....not when he does expect it. If he's paying attention, she doesn't seem to bite. It's when he's off guard, back turned, head turned or gets too close. As stated earlier, when she went for his face the other night- we knew then she could not get back on the bed. And we certainly did not "expect" that.

[Wanda and Flock]

Just for clarity, we used to play with her on the bed. She would run back and forth and back and forth. Since she came home, she's been on the bed with me twice. The first time Dave was already in the bed and we sat down to watch TV. When Dave got up for a second to do whatever it was he did and came back, she went running toward him, crest up and slammed her beak on the bed where his hand was, barely missing his hand. He tried again, she did it again. I put her up for the night. The next time, he was laying there watching TV and she was fine- she was right beside me and I was preening her crest for her. She suddenly took off toward his face, he covered his face with the pillow...she came back over to mine and rubbed her beak on my pillow and she has not been on the bed since. Does that help?

[too&me]

I was trying to come up with a way to avoid that situation that led to that bite. That is all I was thinking. I am sure more people will offer more ideas.

[Wanda and Flock]

I understand and I'm sorry if I sounded...mean or bad or whatever. But she does not just bite him on the bed...it's anywhere she gets a chance. Although we have forgiven him, she hasn't. I think it might be that simple. Anna said she was going to post her observation so we'll see what she says. Maybe deep down she really likes him so she just picks on him, she is a girl. We have weird ways of showing affection.:haha:

[Chrissy and Flock]

Wanda they say we always hurt the ones we love. :D

[FoxersArtist]

Let me throw in my two cents but keep in mind that this is just my opinion.

When Wanda and Dave were here I noticed something right away about his interactions with the birds. It seems to me like Dave has a very hard time reading body language and this is very aggrivating to the birds. This is not his fault - it's just the way he is. Dave seemed very interested in wanting to be friends. It seemed to me that every time he reached for Dolly, she was clearly saying "hey, i'm not comfortable with this" and yet he kept touching her because she was tolerating it. Over a long period of time of forcing an issue (like being pet against will) I have noticed that a bird will get very defensive whenever they are in the same room with that person and/or strangers. Dolly may be biting Dave more at night because her patience is wearing thin by the evening.

My suggestion to Dave is to stop trying to touch Dolly. In fact, I would suggest that he backs way off by not standing near her while she is in the house and by not standing near her cage in the aviary. Tell him to take small steps. Have him talk softly to her - from 4 or 5 feet away. Have him ask dolly if she would like a special treat and then have him hand the treat to you so that you can then offer it to dolly. Dont ask dave to change papers or handle her for a while. Once Dolly realizes that Dave has backed off, she will lower her defenses and then Dave can very slowly try to win her over by bribing he with treats and sweet talking her.

With the way things are going, I would not be surpised to hear about Dolly flying across the room to attack Dave. I don't think that Dolly dislikes Dave...she just feels really invaded and disrespected.
-Anna

[bonnie]

Bonnie, doesn't chicken have a problem with your mom? Does chicken just lunge for her when he gets a chance or does something happen that leads up to the bite? That's what we're trying to figure out.


Yes, my mother and Chicken have their issues. There are now rules in place to protect my momma and Chicken. There are a few differences I would like to point out in our situations before I start telling you how I handle the problem.
1. My momma doesn't live with us. She rarely comes over and when she does I am able to separate the bird form the momma. Like I said, there are rules.
2. Chicken does not always do this to my momma. For example, when we go over to my Momma's house Chicken does not act the same way. I think this is a territorial issue. He knows he is a guest and acts like one.

Okay, so as far a body language leading up to a lunge or a bite. Chicken normally will scream at my momma and pace on his perch or climb all over his cage. My momma knows she is not to touch his cage. PERIOD. Even if Chicken isn't in the kitchen with her when she is by the cage, she doesn't touch it. It's like he can sense that she's playing with his stuff.
If he is on the perch in the livingroom and begins screaming, the screams are ignored just as if he were screaming with only me in the house. Things are kept as regular as possible when momma is here. Momma rarely comes over. Dave lives with you. I would suggest Dave not touch Dolly. Momma doesn't touch Chicken even if he offers her to step him up. She doesn't do anymore than talk to him.
The best thing I can tell you is to read the body language. Even if there is no pacing or screaming, there has got to be something subtle you're missing.
I would really like to just encourage you to not let Dave have interaction with Dolly. Even if you've forgiven him for hurting her, she obviously hasn't. It may take time for them to be able to have a relationship. They may never have a relationship. However, I honestly feel that right now is not the best time for him to be trying to have one.

[Wanda and Flock]

[quote=bonnie;8503] Even if you've forgiven him for hurting her, she obviously hasn't. quote]

Yep, I think it's that simple too.

[bonnie]

The reason behind the bite may be that simple, but you still have to help Dave avoid the bite. Have you decided on a strategy to help you do that?

[Wanda and Flock]

I think it's up to Dave to decide that. He knows when he's gotten bit and if he wants to take the time to work with her, he has to make up his mind to do it. The only "strategy" would be to keep them apart. But, I am not going to keep her locked in the aviary or in her cage or anywhere just because he's in the same room. He lives here, he doesn't just visit so she'd be in "jail" all the time. She didn't do anything wrong. He did. It's not up to just me, Bonnie. If he's not changing his behavior and learning from it, neither will she. I have told him several times to take her into a different room, just her and him and talk with her...whatever, but spend time with her without holding her and let her learn to trust him again- IF that ever happens. And he doesn't.

The bottom line is this- I KNOW why she bites and so does he. And so does everyone else here. She actually looks for him when I bring her in from the aviary and if she sees him in the house, she raises her crest and sort of growls. The first chance she gets that he's near her stands or where ever she is, she lunges and bites. If I got smacked in the beak by this big thing walking around, I'd be pretty leary and since there's no "flight", I guess it's "fight".

Dave doesn't want help. Or at least he doesn't act on advice anyway. He's not being a jerk like he was before, but just because they are home, doesn't mean they mean any more to him than they did before they left. They are here because of me. That's it. He sees how important they are to me. He is not "into" my birds.

On occasion, he is allowed to pet her- usually during the day. To me, that's progress already because if I was her, I'd bite him no matter what time of day it is. Anyway, if I got involved any more than I do, I'd be forcing Dave -not Dolly.

She has never, ever bitten anyone else. Ever. She is the biggest love bug with anyone that wants to hold her.

[Dot]

There are some places birds should not be allowed. Chicken is not allowed on my shoulder or on the back of the couch. In my opinion, being allowed these places is a privelage, not a right. There are some instances in which a bird can prove they are not responsible enough to be allowed in these situations. I know that Dolly and Dave have somewhat of a bad history, but it is his bed... Maybe Dolly should not be allowed in it?

I ditto that.

[too&me]

Perhaps they should just kind of keep a space between them & not interact? If he could ignore her for a while maybe she would be less defensive & learn he wasn't trying to keep touching & handling her until & if she ever indicated she wanted his attention. My advice is to just let her be your bird. Let Lucy be his & see how that works. I hope some thing works to reduce the tension it can't be a fun situation for any of you.

[Julie]

I only have a small suggestion to offer. We KNOW why she bites, and WHO she bits, and that she WILL bite given the chance, and that the opportunity for that bite is greater at night when she is TIRED after a long day.

Now is the time to greatly inforce the good times when she behaves around him. This may be as simple as not lunging when he walks by while he looks at her. That he can stand in the same room and talk to you/her and not have her freak out.

We for a while had a really tough time with the CAG. She would bite me every time I was near (hubbys bird). By me approaching and giving treats, from a safety zone for both of us (through the cage/in a room where she normally would not go) we worked on our trust and slowly regained it. I'm not saying keep her caged more, just give Dave an occasional opportunity to praise and talk (not necessarily snuggle/pet) to her when they are both in a neutral or safe zone. She sounds like she is still being quite defensive, and is a little scared/neurotic with him "wantering" around her house. Is she very territorial of her cage? Could it be possible for him to try and read to her at night, before it is too late and close to bed time? Dolly may just need to see a calmer side of Dave before she will start to relax again.

[Wanda and Flock]

She sounds like she is still being quite defensive, and is a little scared/neurotic with him "wantering" around her house. Is she very territorial of her cage?

Nah, she's not territorial of her cage.... Tonight was a good night though. We had them all out and she was with me while Dave played with the other two. She just watched him, she didn't leeeeeeeaaaaaannn over trying to get him either...just watched. The she started whistling and went about her business -that was it.

[Julie]

Sounds like a wonderful evening.... Glad to hear you all were relaxing and playing together. Your video was great!