The digging/bitinig continues (long; sorry!)

[Julie]

Ok all, I have exhausted myself of ideas on how to help Carl through the season. Nothing I have tried so far is working….

Situation:
My Carl is a digger. When “the season” starts he gets frustrated and starts to pick on a couple of the larger feathers on his chest. These are bit down to the “skin” and then he digs into the skin as these feathers start to grow out. I’m sure it is not comfortable. When he starts in on this we put him in his cone during the day to prevent him from making them worse. We have medicated cleaner from the vet, and put Georges aloe gel on every other day, very lightly, but only where the sore is, and only when he has one. He gets lots of showers, is on a 90/10 seed/pellet diet, though I don’t think he eats any of the pellets. He gets a pasta/veggie mix for breakfast every morning, and 6 nights a week we all eat dinner together, and they get what we eat.

Problem:
Two nights ago, we get up in the middle of the night because we can hear him picking on himself (3rd night in a row). We put his cone on, and while releasing him, he bit down to the bone (not the first time) on hubby’s thumb (the meaty part near the hand joint). We have left him out of his cone since then since he is just being a little nem-rod and freaking out any time he thinks we have the thing or not. He will fly around the room frantic.

I use the cone to try and prevent him from making his sore worse, I feel SO GUILTY :sadeyes: about doing it, but feel it is in his best interest. While he is in the cone he eats very little, and does not play or move around his cage much. So basically I feel like I am not “allowing or facilitating” him to have a good life. But at what cost do I leave him out, and how do I decide? We have him out of the cone right now because he is biting so badly, and he is so scared of us right now. But every day I do this his sore does not heal, or it gets worse. I am afraid that I will come home to a bird that has a good inch or two whole in his chest one day.

History:
When he was first “returned” to the bird store by the original owners, he was set up for breeding. He is a gorgeous (ok I’m partial) bare eyed, but he is VERY people oriented, and this is where he picked up his digging habit. He was scared of the loud female he was paired up with and had to have surgery to repair the damage he did while “cooped” up with her. The breeding facility was very knowledgeable, and had a wonderful set up. I do NOT think it was the breeders fault. He is definitely a “frisky” little boy, so I understand why they tried to set him up to breed. I do not have a lot of knowledge of breeding/husbandry so if my wording/description offends some, this is not my intention, I am simply trying and establish a helpful base line.

Do I keep on the path that I am used to, in the cone during the day, out at night when we can watch him? Carl is a sweetheart, and a very quiet good boy, other than this one issue. Yep, it’s a big issue, and I love him dearly. Is there something that I am not thinking of that might be beneficial in this? Sorry for such a long post!

[too&me]

Julie this has to be both heartbreaking & very frustrating, I'm sure some one will have an idea that may help. He has done so well up to hormone season. How long is he in the dark (sleeping at night? ) I know some birds can be fooled out of these seasonal behaviors by manipulating the light cycle to get past the season. I would suggest at least 12 hours of dark to start.

[bonnie]

Ok, I've never had a problem like this, but since this is only a problem during mating season I wonder... No one hang me if this is a bad idea... I just had a thougth...
Is there a way that he can possibly be studded out or something? Like, I live in horse/cow country and during mating season people will take their livestock with desired traits to someone else's live stock with desired traits to make better offspring. Has this ever been done with pluckers who just seem to need a mate?

[Julie]

I would suggest at least 12 hours of dark to start.

He gets around 11 hours each night. We go to bed very early around 8-9 every night and are back up at 4am. We take them out to the living room, where it is dark till around 7am. He screams contact calls non stop if we put him to bed any earlier.

[birdie]

I'm kinda in the dark on the digging myself, but I've sen posts on other boards about "sock collars" have you tried one of those? I don't know pro's or cons on them, but this is all the thoughts I have.
I'm sure you have lots of toys & shredables in his cage already, I also wonder if there isn't something tramatic he associates with the hormone feeling that causes him to dig.
Larry should be along with some helpful advise.
:hgz:

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I saw your post Julie... I am going over some stuff to respond -- I will type somethings out later.

[Julie]

I have tried the "manufactured" sock, as well as using one of my hubby's old sock out of the drawer. You know the ones that have holes in the toes. They do have greater move-ability with these but they are warm and I am affraid he over heats. The other thing is he tends to just chew through the sock where the "owie" is. Then since he is chewing harder through the sock it gets worse..... I have even tried those super thick manufactured ones. They last him about a week at 75-100 each.

Yep, tons of toys, and shreddables. His favorites are thankfully ones i can make. Beaded leather toys, and those soft chewable things.... Not into wood at all. We took out his toy bucket because he was throwing his toys out and trying to nest with whiffle balls....

[FoxersArtist]

Julie,
I know you work all day but your mom lives with you, right? Does she stay home all day or does she work too? If she is home and it is possible, have her take Carl out of his cage (away from his nest) as much as possible. (And take him out of the collar if he can be supervised by her). Set up different perches in various places in the home and haver her move carl from place to place during the day and evening. Put him in front of a window for a while so he can look outside, put him in the kitchen with a bowl full of his favorite treats, put him on a perch where he has a coveted toy that he can only play with on that perch. Have him si in mom's lap with a basket of toys. Distract him as much as possible during the day and give him very little down time. This way when he goes to sleep he will sleep well and he wont be just sitting around very much during the day. Moving birds from place to place seems to decrease nesty desires and may reduce those hormones.

I might also suggest fiddling with his diet if you think it might be possible that he has dry or inflamed skin. Some birds are allergic to certain things (I have a tiel that was allergic to larger amounts of millet and plucked due to itchy, inflamed skin.) I don't know about you but most of my birds are molting right now. Are you sure the digging is hormonal and not related to a recent molt? Just curious.
-Anna

[Julie]

Unfortunately mom workes during the day too. Thankfully she adores him and would be more than happy to spend more time with him but she leave about and hour and a half after we do in the AM. I normally get home pretty early and he gets out then, but may be he needs more exercise... I will try that out very closely for the next week and let you know the difference!

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Julie,

My work day is done - and I can now concentrate on Carl.

Avian experts have been puzzled about plucking and feather destruction for the past 40 years and they have not come up with a known cause or a known cure. There are many products on the market that are nothing more than snake oil. Some are applied topically (to the skin) and some are put in the water.

We seem to want to find the cause - for if we do, then we can apply a cure to the cause. Unfortunately no two experts agree on the cause. Some say it is genetic - born with the predisposition to pluck, others say it is behavior (duh) of course it is behavior - a plucking and picking behavior .

I have read recent articles suggesting that it might be sexually driven. A female will pluck her brood patch on her chest to make the bare spot larger in preparation for brooding her eggs - bare skin is warmer to the eggs than feathers. The article suggested the males are also affected in the same way. In the wild where nature can take its course - the plucking of the brood patch is not taken to extreme because all is satisfied for the bird with mating and then the laying of the eggs. But in captivity - this process cannot take place - hence the bird (female or male) will pluck to extreme.

Others say it is caused by a lack of foraging... we "give" our birds their food so they do not have to work for it. In the wild - most of their day is consumed with hunting for food and then resting and then goofing off.

There was an article in the Good Bird Inc magazine that links the lack of foraging in the chicken (poultry) industry to plucking. When chickens that plucked were then fed by foraging -- the plucking stopped.

I have read many posts that talked about re-homed birds that were abused and they had plucked - no longer plucked when in the new, loving home. Chrissy's Cassie is a recent example. Liza had Shy - same thing.

But there are many more examples of plucking birds that have been only in one home and that home environment is the best it can be - Baby is an example of this.

I have bathed Baby with water and then sprayed her with George's for the past several months - the result... less feathers on her chest than when I started that regime. I have recently switched to distilled water in the spray and eliminated her sink bath. Our well water might have something in it that is not good for her skin. I really don't know - I do grasp for straws.

I am not going to list the "known" things to do - toys-shreddables - diet - etc... we all try to do the best with what we know.

So what is the solution --- I have been thinking the lack of excercise. The Dog Whisperer firmly believes in exercising dogs to get their energy spent. Their behavior changes almost immidiately after a regime of daily exercise.

I think Baby mostly plucks in the middle of the night and just before dawn.

I am not much help here because I have not made any progress either.

Plucking is one thing - but with Carl digging at his skin - it's got to be controlled the best you can. I don't have to tell you that.

I would not use the George's aloe gel on him. The liquid is distilled and all the bad stuff is taken out of it and it is safe for humans to drink. But aloe is toxic and a laxitive. So - George's gel is no doubt no different than any other aloe gel on the market... not to be ingested by humans and certainly not by birds. My vet prescribed Sulfadiazine to apply to minor cuts and abrasions. I have a tube on hand and I keep it in the fridge just in case Baby gets to the point of digging.

Julie - I sure wish I could be of more help --- but I am as stumped as you are... and I have done tons of research.

Here is a final thought - You are preventing him from nesting because it is thought that this behavior will lead to plucking. Well - preventing his nesting behavior certainly has not stopped him from plucking. So what if he were allowed to spend his time doing what comes naturally to him and allow him to nest.... What do you think???

[Julie]

Funny you mention Cesar Millan.... As you know we share the same last name....

My sister is a dog trainer, and has been for many years. She runs a full time training group here in my town, and is very interested in working with Carl. She has attended many avian classes taught by researchers down at UC Davis. She purchased a parrot clicker training book for me/Carl for Christmas.... I do not know if I will enlist her help or not, but she is aware that he is a “digger”. I am just so cautious on whom he is exposed to, and I would hate for her first experience with bird training to be with a nippy frisky male cockatoo that will most likely give her “an experience to remember”!

I will definitely make his exercise a regular routine every night to at least some extent. Tonight I read out loud to him, we watched YouTube, played fetch (Yep I fetched), and both he and Duch helped me make cookies for work tomorrow. I was actually able to find some video’s of bare eyed’s on you tube. He was very interested in a young female Sammie, and normally he completely ignores the computer/YouTube. This again reinforces the nesty behavior concept...

I could VERY easily create a nesty space for him in his day cage. I will mull it over with hubby this weekend and see what I can come up with. Sometimes something as little as a cardboard box and some paper will do the trick, right? I will just have to be extremely cautious with approaching him in his cage if we do allow him to have a nesty spot. He is much more likely to defend this area and become aggressive, right? Carl to this point has only bitten when he has the towel around him for the cone or for pedicure time.

To Anna’s point my tiel’s are molting, but Carl did this about 3 weeks ago. During our cuddle tonight I did not notice any pin feathers, but may be he is not to that stage yet.

Thankfully we have been able to pin point the behaviors that are obvious that he has been digging. (The first occurrence of this was when we were in the process of buying our home last spring. A lot of extra time out of the house, which is not normal for us; even as young as we are).

I truly do want the very best for him. If in the long run he continues this behavior then may be it will be time for me to consider finding him a home that will have someone home with him all day long. Some times I wish I could just take him to work with me, since he is such a good boy, but that would NEVER happen….

We shall see; I will let you know if anything changes over the next couple weeks. I am just feeling a bit overwhelmed, thank you for knowledge and moral support.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Julie - I too get overwhelmed... it must be doubly tough for you because of him digging.

I am not for clicker training. And I do agree with you --- dog (domestic animal) training is a whole bunch different that Parrot (exotic wild animal) training. I agree with you - I would not want her to "experiment" with Carl.

I have also thought at times that Baby would have a better life with another family --- but for the life of me I can't seem to figure out how her life could be any better than it is here with my wife and me.

One thing that Baby and Carl have in common... both are sweet and very quiet. Hmmm???

Many times I wish Baby would screem to the top of her lungs - all day long --- just to release some energy.

Sometimes she seems sad and lonely.... I don't know what to do about it.

My wife works out of the home at the office and I work here at home - But I cannot have Baby out of her cage while I am working. Even though I am here for her -- I am not really.

[Julie]

I have also thought at times that Baby would have a better life with another family --- but for the life of me I can't seem to figure out how her life could be any better than it is here with my wife and me.

One thing that Baby and Carl have in common... both are sweet and very quiet. Hmmm???

Many times I wish Baby would screem to the top of her lungs - all day long --- just to release some energy.

Sometimes she seems sad and lonely.... I don't know what to do about it.

My wife works out of the home at the office and I work here at home - But I cannot have Baby out of her cage while I am working. Even though I am here for her -- I am not really.

Both my husband and I have said for a long time that how could someone else provide better for him than we all ready do? I am not trying to boast here, its just that we spend a lot of time with them, learning about them, and being a flock together. I know that Carl has vastly improved the life of Duch since we brought him home, and I don't know if giving him the opportunity to have a new home would really change anything.

All I can hope is that I can figure out what is lacking and make sure he gets what he needs. You spend countless hours learning about parrots, and the people who care for them, and yet of all of us you have a wonderful sweet parrot that is a plucker. It just goes to show that we truly do not know the cause(s)....

I to have spent hours reading on the internet, since work is not always busy for me, about the plucking/digging behavior. Everyone is just so "sure" they are right, and then they all turn out wrong, or even worse in-conclusive....

Do you mind if I ask where/how you found Baby. Was she hand feed, Carl was. Was she pretty young when you brought her home? You know that Carl picked me out when we visited a bird store for food and toys one day. I walked in and he stepped up and nibbled my chin, and I took him home that day.

Can you get Baby to sing/dance at all? I read all over how much birds love to dance and play and be over-zealous. This comes about once a week, and only in the shower, and it is never vocal, just excited rain dance. I can not for the life of me get him to sing and dance and be a wild and crazy too. I think his first owners were just too good at training him to be quiet.....

Well it is now 9pm here on the West coast, so I know it is way past your bed time too! Thank you for the long distance hug, and will be keeping all interested informed....

[Chrissy and Flock]

Julie, Cassie doesn't sing and dance she doesn't play like you see others doing and she hates the shower its all I can do to give her a shower. She had been a plucker for several years, no digging. Since she has been here she has not plucked, but that doesn't mean she won't I pray she don't. I am not doing anything any different than everyone else here, she is a good bird mostly quiet yes quiet. She calls the flock in the evening time and she will have a little outburst every now and then but its not even a daily thing. I wish I had some words of wisdom for you but I don't just wanted to share a little of Cassie's story with you. Oh and being the owner of 4 dogs, they and the birds are worlds apart. Perhaps your sister should rethink what she is offering to get into. I don't have any answers but I can offer you moral support.

[FoxersArtist]

I hope I don't come off seeming like a kill joy here. I believe that trying many things to improve the quality of life for our birds is wonderful, but I just want to bring up this point about nesting. If Carl is permitted to build a nest...what then? He will have both oars in the water but nowhere to go. He is bonded to Julie and her mother, but they cannot fulfill his desires. I would be afraid that his hormones would just increase because of the nest building, not be alliviated...plus it could make an already jazzed up bird even more protective of his space which could damage his relationship with Julie. Those are just a few concerns. I sure hope you can figure out what is best for the little guy, Julie. I really feel for the position you are in. I do think that you have been providing the very best home for Carl.
-Anna

[Evelyn]

Ok,
Is there a way that he can possibly be studded out or something? Like, I live in horse/cow country and during mating season people will take their livestock with desired traits to someone else's live stock with desired traits to make better offspring. Has this ever been done with pluckers who just seem to need a mate?

This doesn't work for parrots. They have to bond to each other before breeding. Sometimes it takes years before a pair is ready to mate. Also, there is always a risk with paired birds that one will injure or sometimes even kill, its mate.

Evelyn

[Chrissy and Flock]

This doesn't work for parrots. They have to bond to each other before breeding. Sometimes it takes years before a pair is ready to mate. Also, there is always a risk with paired birds that one will injure or sometimes even kill, its mate.

Evelyn
Not to make light of Julie's situation, but wow birds really are part human. :)

[Evelyn]

Julie -

This may be way off the wall because I have never heard of it with birds, but I'm wondering if giving hormones to a bird with Carl's problem is feasible. I know they manipulate breeding season in horses with light (as somebody has already suggested) and with hormones. Of course, in the case of horses, they usually want to bring the mare into season and/or extend the breeding season. But, intuitively, is seems as though one could do the opposite. Has anybody ever heard of this? Of course, you would be giving Carl female hormones.

Evelyn

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Anna,

Please understand - I am not arguing with you or disputing the validity of what you said. I am just trying to put perspective on what we "don't" know about companion parrots. There is more that is not known than is known.

Even the world's top most authorities in avian care and avian medicine continually change their stories. My vet along with all certified avian vets is required to take annual continuing education to keep her certification. When she attends the lectures, the person at the podium usually opens up their speech with - "Remember what I told you last year? Well, that was wrong. This is what we now know".

During my quest for facts in the lead in cage paint mess, I have had the honor to talk to Dr. Peter Jowette at the LSU labs on several occasions. He is one of the world's top authorities in the field of avian toxicology. He is not only the best in the state of Louisiana - he is one of the best in the entire world. One of the lab results came back with a comment that said zinc content for this paint sample is greater than the acceptable range of 250 - 500 ppm. So - I called Dr. Jowette and questioned the comment that stated a range instead of a set maximum number. I asked him how the safe range was derived. He told me, no one has ever fed parrots toxic paint chips to see what affect they would have. He said the range was determined by calculations and it is only a "guess". That is called a SWAG. And for those that don't know what a SWAG is --- it is a Scientific Wild A** Guess.

What we take as common knowledge - in my estimation is mostly wrong. Point in case - Do not give your bird apples pieces with the seeds. Apple seeds contain arsenic and they will kill your bird. I have believed this and only gave Baby apple slices containing no seeds. She had no interest in those pieces. Then Don and I were talking about this -- and he told me apple seeds won't hurt your bird, it would take a huge amount to have any detrimental affect. I asked him if he was sure about this and he said he has been giving his birds apple quarters with the seeds left in for over 25 years and all of his birds are alive and well. So, I began giving Baby apple quarters with the seed left in - and she went right for them - eating some of the seeds and the apple as well. I am here to say, she is still alive. There are many such things that I could belabor, but for brevity I will not.

We are all clear, thinking adults here - so I am going to share something that I have been holding back. A couple years ago a Mollucan owner took her bird to my vet for aggressive plucking and flesh mutilation. My vet tried everything known including behavior modifications and a variety of medications with no positive results. The bird continued to self-mutilate until it was ripping into its flesh and then into its muscle tissue. A series of infections set in which made the bird dig deeper. The bird was actually slowly and painfully killing itself. My vet and its owner decided the humane thing to do was to put the bird down... and that is what was done.

You said... If Carl is permitted to build a nest - what then? I would be afraid that his hormones would just increase because of the nest building, not be alleviated... plus it could make an already jazzed up bird even more protective of his space which could damage his relationship with Julie.

Okay... what then??? His hormone production "could" increase. Is that a bad thing??? Could he then become protective of his territory and get grouchy, nippy and bitey? Could his nest building damage his relationship with Julie??? All that is "possible" with what we know about breeding pairs during the season. Does that mean the relationship would be permanently damaged - even after the season has ended? What do we KNOW?

If I had a choice - and I think every one here would agree - between an aggressive and territorial bird during the season as compared to a bird that is digging at its flesh --- I would take the temporally aggressive bird.

Perhaps - and only perhaps... the "common" knowledge of trying to keep our birds from breeding and nesting behavior during the season ain't so smart after all. Perhaps - and only perhaps... their pent up natural instincts should be encouraged and not thwarted. Perhaps and only perhaps... their energy should be allowed to be directed to their natural instincts and away from plucking and flesh mutilation.

[Evelyn]

Larry -

I am very glad to hear you say this (or see you write it). That has been a secret thought of mine, but everytime I voiced it, I was shot down by people whose opinions I respect.

My own reasoning is that we already deprive caged birds of their freedom and their ability to be with their natural flock. We take babies and even the eggs from the parents so we can have socialized birds who will bond to humans instead of others of its kind. To pile on top of that by preventing them from engaging in the very natural and instinctive urge to mate seems to me to be unnecessarily cruel.

I don't see how allowing birds to build nests if they want to, and even laying eggs if they want to, can be any more detrimental to the bird than what we force upon them. (I know about calcium deficiencies, but there are ways to discourage females from laying constantly.)

Last year my female LSC desperately wanted to build a nest. I kept her from doing it, which frustrated her. If she tries it this year, I'm not going to encourage it, but neither am I going to keep her from doing it. She has never laid an egg, but if she does, I will leave it there because if I remove it, she will probably just lay another one. I believe she and I both will experience less stress, and I hope she will be happier for it.

Evelyn

[Julie]

Julie -

This may be way off the wall because I have never heard of it with birds, but I'm wondering if giving hormones to a bird with Carl's problem is feasible. I know they manipulate breeding season in horses with light (as somebody has already suggested) and with hormones. Of course, in the case of horses, they usually want to bring the mare into season and/or extend the breeding season. But, intuitively, is seems as though one could do the opposite. Has anybody ever heard of this? Of course, you would be giving Carl female hormones.

Evelyn

Evelyn,

You are 100% correct, there is a hormone treatment available. We tried it last year in the spring time. The treatment worked TOO good. He was a zombie for 2.5 months. He ate, slept, and pooed... Thats it, he did not play, snuggle, talk, anything.... He was literally a zombie... Now if the digging gets worse, and worse than I will probably have to resort to this again. They say that the more "often" you give it to them they build up an immunity.... Yep you are correct, something to think about. I think it was about $65.00...

[too&me]

I confess that since we got Harry when he wants to get nesty we let him have a cardboard box & whatever he wants to use for an egg & he loves it. He eventually shreds the box & game ends. If he was a female I would probably not do this in fear of encouraging a potential egg binding problem. He is a bit aggressive this time of year anyway & it gives him a behavior outlet. His aggression does not seem any worse with a box to nest in. He will still step up when I ask most of the time & still wants petting & takes his treats. All in all he is a nicer guy this time of year because he has something he wants to do. That is my take on it & my confession.:goodbad:

[Julie]

I hope I don't come off seeming like a kill joy here. ...plus it could make an already jazzed up bird even more protective of his space which could damage his relationship with Julie. -Anna

Anna,

You are not a kill joy... You know that 2 months ago Carl did get all jazzed up and aerial bommed me and took 2 chunks of flesh out of my arm when I tried to take him away from my mom to go back to his cage to poop. You helped me to determine that I have been replaced my my quiet slow moving mother as 2nd best in our house, which I am fine with... Since I have "realized" this he has been much better, and it really is better for my mom too, because now I don't have to wait on her hand and foot when it comes to the birds. She loves them but likes to not make them step up/down, or do anything on command. It makes her our equal in that she has to request these "reasonable" commands from the birds too. She is even petting/stepping up the Duch too. Even though she is terrified of her.... I digress....

I will start with an increased exercise routine, as well as changin his feeding procedures. I will probably keep offering his veggies out in plain site, as well as a smaller scoop of food, but try to incorporate more foraging into his routine. If this makes him get off his top perch a couple more times a day this will be an improvement. I did put a small wicker bacsket of foot toys in the bottom of his cage this morning. Not his full toy bucket that he likes to nest in, but something different to play with that will hold all the toys since he likes that so much.

Larry, I know you have worked with a cage mfg that has good deals on the internet. Do you mind sharing the web-site again. I'm searously considering trying to save up my birthday money to get him a new larger cage. Duch can have the one he is currently using....

After these changes have sunk in, may be a couple weeks from now, I can sit back and re-evaluate.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Julie,

During my lead in cage paint quest... I found RIchard King (owner of Kings Cages) to be a straight shooter and honest with me. Another good person I found is Sharon Baker an on-line retailer out of Texas. Everyone else lied to me, hid under their desks and are outright scum bags.

The Kings European line (powder coated) has been privately tested by bird owner like us and the results were toxin free. Their SS cages have also been privately tested and are in fact high quality SS. Their Econo line (made in China) has not been privately tested - so I cannot vouch for them at this time.

Baby's first cage is the Kings 302 (powder coated Euro line) and her new cage is the 506 (powder coated Euro line). The Kings Euro line cages are well built and a joy to have. I highly recommended them.

When you need a new cage - please PM me and I will give you my contact (not Richard King) who has been giving substantial disocunts to my friends.

[FoxersArtist]

Anna,

Please understand - I am not arguing with you or disputing the validity of what you said. I am just trying to put perspective on what we "don't" know about companion parrots. There is more that is not known than is known.

Even the world's top most authorities in avian care and avian medicine continually change their stories. My vet along with all certified avian vets is required to take annual continuing education to keep her certification. When she attends the lectures, the person at the podium usually opens up their speech with - "Remember what I told you last year? Well, that was wrong. This is what we now know".

During my quest for facts in the lead in cage paint mess, I have had the honor to talk to Dr. Peter Jowette at the LSU labs on several occasions. He is one of the world's top authorities in the field of avian toxicology. He is not only the best in the state of Louisiana - he is one of the best in the entire world. One of the lab results came back with a comment that said zinc content for this paint sample is greater than the acceptable range of 250 - 500 ppm. So - I called Dr. Jowette and questioned the comment that stated a range instead of a set maximum number. I asked him how the safe range was derived. He told me, no one has ever fed parrots toxic paint chips to see what affect they would have. He said the range was determined by calculations and it is only a "guess". That is called a SWAG. And for those that don't know what a SWAG is --- it is a Scientific Wild A** Guess.

What we take as common knowledge - in my estimation is mostly wrong. Point in case - Do not give your bird apples pieces with the seeds. Apple seeds contain arsenic and they will kill your bird. I have believed this and only gave Baby apple slices containing no seeds. She had no interest in those pieces. Then Don and I were talking about this -- and he told me apple seeds won't hurt your bird, it would take a huge amount to have any detrimental affect. I asked him if he was sure about this and he said he has been giving his birds apple quarters with the seeds left in for over 25 years and all of his birds are alive and well. So, I began giving Baby apple quarters with the seed left in - and she went right for them - eating some of the seeds and the apple as well. I am here to say, she is still alive. There are many such things that I could belabor, but for brevity I will not.

We are all clear, thinking adults here - so I am going to share something that I have been holding back. A couple years ago a Mollucan owner took her bird to my vet for aggressive plucking and flesh mutilation. My vet tried everything known including behavior modifications and a variety of medications with no positive results. The bird continued to self-mutilate until it was ripping into its flesh and then into its muscle tissue. A series of infections set in which made the bird dig deeper. The bird was actually slowly and painfully killing itself. My vet and its owner decided the humane thing to do was to put the bird down... and that is what was done.

You said... If Carl is permitted to build a nest - what then? I would be afraid that his hormones would just increase because of the nest building, not be alleviated... plus it could make an already jazzed up bird even more protective of his space which could damage his relationship with Julie.

Okay... what then??? His hormone production "could" increase. Is that a bad thing??? Could he then become protective of his territory and get grouchy, nippy and bitey? Could his nest building damage his relationship with Julie??? All that is "possible" with what we know about breeding pairs during the season. Does that mean the relationship would be permanently damaged - even after the season has ended? What do we KNOW?

If I had a choice - and I think every one here would agree - between an aggressive and territorial bird during the season as compared to a bird that is digging at its flesh --- I would take the temporally aggressive bird.

Perhaps - and only perhaps... the "common" knowledge of trying to keep our birds from breeding and nesting behavior during the season ain't so smart after all. Perhaps - and only perhaps... their pent up natural instincts should be encouraged and not thwarted. Perhaps and only perhaps... their energy should be allowed to be directed to their natural instincts and away from plucking and flesh mutilation.


Larry & Evelyn,
first I would like to clarify that my opinion is not and should never be the end all be all on this board - neither should anyone elses. Mine is simply an opinion based on my own observations and one that is not always right either! We are all here together to learn from each other. I am certain that with birds, there can never be a manual. Each bird is different and each bird responds to situations differently according to it's specific needs. I praise anyone who is willing to try new things with their bird in an attempt to improve the lives of their feathered friends.

I would not at all be surprised to see a bird improve when allowed to nest but my experiences also tell me that many birds would only become more sexually frustrated. I am a big believer in experimenting as long as the bird's basic needs are being cared for. I just think it's very important for people to understand both ends of the spectrum when making decisions which is why I brought up my point about Carl becoming more frustrated. Something that is very important for us to remember is that WE KNOW our birds unlike anyone else. When any one of us gives advice, we can do so only with the knowledge given, but those who live with their bird day in and day out ultimately know what's best. You have to trust your feelings. I think we can agree that every member on this board is here because of how much they care for their birds. That being said, I want everyone to know that I will always support any decisions being made about the care of our birds, even if I don't agree with the decision being made. That is called trust and respect.

Just thought it would be good to clarify. :)
-Anna

[too&me]

Well phrased Anna, I think we are all on the same track here just offering the observations & experiences we have each gained in hopes of hitting on what is right for Carl & Julies situation. Only Julie knows Carl well enough to sift through all our input & arrive at her own right way. We all want to help Carl get better.:umm:

[Evelyn]

Anna -

I wasn't taking issue with your opinion. I value and respect everything you have to say because of your vast experience and successes with birds.

I was just so surprised when Larry voiced what I had been thinking for a long time but was afraid to say.

I don't even know if this will work for Betty (LSC) this year, but I am going to try it and see. But you are right, what works for one bird may not work for another.

Evelyn

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Oh boy... I have been working late tonight and just now got some time.

All of us have given valuable input. I agree with Anna - no one knows the bird better than the Parront. Each bird is different - even within the same species. What works for one might not work for another.

You all know that I have a curious mind and I try my best to think outside the box - so to speak. It is not that I purposefully challange the status quo - but I see so many things that keep changing on the avian landscape. It is a recent phenomina that we have companion parrots in our homes in the numbers that we have (17 million). America leads the world in research and understanding - and yet we have only touched the surface.

I don't challange the status quo -- I do question it.

[FoxersArtist]

Anna -

I wasn't taking issue with your opinion. I value and respect everything you have to say because of your vast experience and successes with birds.

I was just so surprised when Larry voiced what I had been thinking for a long time but was afraid to say.

I don't even know if this will work for Betty (LSC) this year, but I am going to try it and see. But you are right, what works for one bird may not work for another.

Evelyn

Not a problem. :) I just want to be sure that no one puts me or my opinions above anyone else here because that is not where I belong. All of you are so valuable and knowledgeable and wonderful! You all help me to better understand my flock each day and I am so very greatful to be here!
-Anna