Need Input on U2!

[FoxersArtist]

As most of you probably know by now, we decided it would be best to place Uriel up for adoption, as we feel he could have a much more suitable environment elsewhere. It's funny how things seems to fall in place sometimes.

A few weeks ago, just after Andy and I had decided on Uriel's future, I got a phone call regarding an umbrella cockatoo. His current owner is his 3rd home in the past 10 months and the bird is thought to be somewhere between 6-8 years old. She is fairly sure that he is a male. She says that he is a screamer, and we will need to work on converting his diet to something other than all seed. He has also recently started plucking, however these are not the issues I am concerned with. The bird is supposedly very social and loves interaction. He will preform tricks, play games, and loves to cuddle but has a history of changing from playful to very aggressive very quickly and with little warning. Obviously, it is impossible to tell if the bird is giving warning signs without actually seeing this behavior, but his current owner came over today to see our rescue and decided this would be a good place for him to be rehabilitated. She had 4 stitches on one hand and 7 on the other from his bites that she had recieved in the past 2 weeks.

Andy and I talked it over last week and decided that because Uriel would be rehomed and because we are very curious about this birds "issues" that we should take him in. I think I'm going to take him to our best avian vet (a little more pricey, but you get what you pay for) and have him run a whole bunch of labs. We'll put him in a quarentined area until we are sure that he is healthy, but then, let the discovery begin.

Has anyone ever had any experience with a friendly cockatoo biting THIS hard with little warning? My intuition says that because the bird bit her during a play session, the bird is overstimulated. But even this being the case, how can we re-program this guy to have a softer bite? Any suggestions are more than welcome and I'm sure I will be posting with more questions as we get to know the bird.
-Anna

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Anna,

Brenda and I can give you quite a bit of input on Umbie's no-warning bites.

The no warnings were most confusing to me because all of the books (yeah right) said to watch for the warnings before the bite. They gave detailed descriptions as well as pics showing warnings. And watch for the pinning of the eyes... Ya can't see the Umbies eyes pin - too dark!

Well - none of that works with most Umbies. They go straight to the bite - with no warning.

And their bite - when they really mean to bite can be bad. They rip instead of a clean bite.

But I have learned --- very slowly I have learned... to watch out for circumstances leading up to and her movements just before the bite.

I'll be back... more to follow...

[Larry, Baby and Me]

... I'm back - yep, I feel better now.

I'll be going back and forth with time-lines and events - so bear with me over the next few days.

Bottom line... Most birds will send you clear messages. I have seen several Macaws lunge to make you flinch. They do not intend to bite but to scare you a bit as a warning. They will stop just short of the bite. Zons will send you a memo as Jill W has said. But Umbies - when they want to bite - they don't lunge and stop short, they bite - plain and simple.

The only way to stop the bite is to avoid the bite. It sounds simple and it is. You will find that he will start to be a little edgy. Maybe pacing a bit. The head feathers might be slicked back, but the beak feathers might be fluffed over the beak - showing a sign of contentment. But the fluffed beak feathers-look is a fooler. Their favorite method is to sucker bite you. They will sweetly lure you in just to nail you.

That describes a little bit on "how" they bite you. The trick is to find out "why" they bite you and the circumstances surrounding the bite.

1. They have a keen sense of fairness. If they feel they have been treated unfairly - they will be angry. And when they are angry - they bite. They do hide their anger - even from themselves.

2. They hold a grudge - for a very long time.

3. They will at times forget about their anger and then suddenly remember it and then bite out of nowhere. It seems like they don't have control over their behavior. I think it is their cuddly nature that is the conflict within them. They want the close interaction and the strokes and the cuddles and then right in the middle of the good feelings comes popping out - their anger.

4. As with all birds that are in a bitting mode... ya just have to go slow and buddy up to them. They can be turned around to not bite. And then you will have a friend for life that is beyond compare.

I have to go to bed for now. Tomorrow I will get into territory and all that. Too-overload is another thing that plays a big role in Umbie's biting.

My "guess" is - the bird is angry. More later...

[FoxersArtist]

Thanks a bunch larry, and ANYONE else with ANY input. I know first hand exactly what you are describing, Larry. It was actually one of the first things I learned about birds but it wasn't from a cockatoo. It was from my very first cockatiel, Cooper! We would be right in the middle of a good scritch and BAM! She would pop her head right up and bite my fingers. No warning, no nothing! Obviously this little cockatiel can't bite hard enough to send me to get stitches, but I have always been curious about this behavior of hers. I have always said that cockatoos and cockatiels are very similar in many ways, just not in size. Here is a comic I drew quite a few years back regarding this issue. It was one of the first I did in a series so forgive the crudeness of the drawings. I was still getting used to drawing the "characters."
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Foxersartist/Fosters/Birdy%20Art/Cooper%20Comics/PetMe.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Foxersartist/Fosters/Birdy%20Art/Cooper%20Comics/IBite.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Foxersartist/Fosters/Birdy%20Art/Cooper%20Comics/Bipolar.jpg
-Anna

[TikiTalks]

roflmbo!! LOL ANNA! What's funny is Cooper STILL LOOOOOVES Anna.. but is still a little biter! Lol. We love the Coop.

[EasySpirit]

Anna,

Brenda and I can give you quite a bit of input on Umbie's no-warning bites.

The no warnings were most confusing to me because all of the books (yeah right) said to watch for the warnings before the bite. They gave detailed descriptions as well as pics showing warnings. And watch for the pinning of the eyes... Ya can't see the Umbies eyes pin - too dark!

Well - none of that works with most Umbies. They go straight to the bite - with no warning.

And their bite - when they really mean to bite can be bad. They rip instead of a clean bite.

But I have learned --- very slowly I have learned... to watch out for circumstances leading up to and her movements just before the bite.

I'll be back... more to follow...


The class Susan Friedman teaches talks about the ABC's of behavior. I had used this information at least 10 years or more with Alzheimer patients for it was easy for me to transfer the information.

The ABC's are antecedent, behavior and consequence. Larry hit is on the noise when he said to watch out for the circumstances leading up to the action. Was the bird overstimulated, jealousy, doesn't want petting of a certain area more than a certain amount of time, does someone else walking in the room set the bird off.

I have found goffin behavior similar to Us's...Sulfers are definitely different. The Rosie also has some similarities. A lot is about getting to know them and who they really are. There may not be a warning sign but a precursor most certainly be a warning activity.

First, I would keep this bird clipped. I would keep play time on a perch or at a table but away from stuffed furniture. Listen to all the people and how they talk about their tooz being territorial of the sofa. My goffin would strutt the sofa and really take off claiming it as his own. My most contact with him now is in the computer room which has a table top perch and a playstand. They have to climb down to get to you and you can see what behavior may be heading your way by watching the walk and strutt. Just now TC wanted a computer key. He had the look, the sneakiness and I just shooed him back up on his play perch. Keep a towel nearby and ready. A bird cannot bite two hands at once...get the towel to first protect the hands and let it become the tool to hold and calm the bird. Return the bird to cage at this point to settle down and no talking soothing or calming...don't want this to be a way to get attention.

Easy

[too&me]

Don't forget that they are The Drama Queens of the planet-any excitement or reaction makes it more fun to do. It seems to me that some of this type of behavior can also be a game to them, a very mean game for us. I'm certain we will all learn more as you explore his potential and his personality. Harry has made my Mom his favorite victim and will fly at her to bite or pull hair-for him it is at least in part, a game. I have let his primary's grow out to assist in his feather barbering recovery so I have to watch him closely.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

There may not be a warning sign but a precursor most certainly be a warning activity.

First, I would keep this bird clipped.

:) Attitude adjustment is what we call it in our house.

I would keep play time on a perch or at a table but away from stuffed furniture.

:) With Toos - I think you hit the nail on the head - territorial as all get- out. They claim what they have been on. You can see them hammer their beaks on what they claim. They also chew what they have claimed to mark their territory. Nuetral rooms - not their territory - works wonders with these Toos.

Listen to all the people and how they talk about their tooz being territorial of the sofa.

My goffin would strutt the sofa and really take off claiming it as his own.

:) I think that is the BEST discription of the behavior that I have ever heard STRUTTING THEIR STUFF!!! It's like they are not just coming to pick a fight - but to whip your ass. (sorry for that word - but it does describe what they do).

My most contact with him now is in the computer room which has a table top perch and a playstand. They have to climb down to get to you and you can see what behavior may be heading your way by watching the walk and strutt.

:) Again - watch the way they STRUTT.

Just now TC wanted a computer key. He had the look, the sneakiness and I just shooed him back up on his play perch.

:) There is that certain LOOK that you got to recognize. I say to my wife - come get Baby - she has that LOOK. Or if my wife is not at home... I get the little baby blanket and drape it over Baby and "carefully" pick her up and place her in her cage. It is that LOOK that you have to learn to recognize and avoid the bite.

Keep a towel nearby and ready. A bird cannot bite two hands at once...get the towel to first protect the hands and let it become the tool to hold and calm the bird. Return the bird to cage at this point to settle down and no talking soothing or calming...don't want this to be a way to get attention.

:) The towel and the baby blanket are my friends. They have become part of my everyday relationship with Baby.

Easy

I haven't been bit in quite a while... and it is because I did (and do) some things:

Got on her good side by finding out what she really likes as a positive (reward) such as treats through the bars, certain types of scritches, and so forth. It was (and still is) the buddy-up to her method. This was to difuse a long term grudge she had against me.

Avoid the bite at all cost. One bite leads to another... With them biting is just like potato chips --- ya just can't stop at one. And they become addicting.

Clipped her when she was in a long term snit mood. She is now almost full feathered - but olur relationship is like dancing with a lion. Nice and warm and cuddly - but if you make a mis-step... watch out.

I learned to watch out for the "look" and the "strutt". They don't do the swaying back and forth thing before they bite - like some of the "experts" have claimed. But they will sway back and forth but that is only a show - not a real serious thing.

And Anna -- your drawings perfectly said it all... especially the last one. You put it all in a nutshell.

[birdie]

I don’t have much time today, but I will respond without reading any other responses.

Stella is a wonderful loving birdy, MOST of the time. She has many moods that we go through and with many e-mails with Larry about a year ago, I finally learned to look for things, what to do & what not to do. Trial & error and I did get bitten, although nothing requiring stitches.
Stella & I can be sitting on the couch looking out the window, or watching TV, or playing and getting along just fine when out of the blue… WHAM! I get bitten, and she mostly ALWAYS goes for my face. ** I haven’t been bitten in 3-4 months**
I have learned to only play for 5-10 minutes at a time then change what we are doing. If we are looking out the window, watch for prey birds in the air. There is a certain ball she LOVES to play with but I stay FAR from her when she does because it’s a sure bite for momma if I get in the way. She only gets this ball for about 5 minutes once a week and no other birdy is out so she has my full attention.
There are very little if any warning signs at all. I have learned to watch for her feathers to sleek back or look like she’s “overly warm” and to the cage she goes. I also have learned that when she gets “that look” to get her to her cage FAST!! I put one hand under her feet, her tail towards me & beak facing away, and wrap my other hand around the base of her tail NOT squeezing but so she can’t get away, and I have the best control of her this way and she can’t seem to reach me to bite.

It will take some time to figure out the birds triggers whether it be a color, an activity, a sound, or just because he’s a U2 and wants to bite.

Stella, not dna sexed, has dark/black eyes & the vet feels confident that she is a HE.

I’ll attach a pic of one of my bites…

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Hey Anna. Linus used to go from play to aggression very quickly when I first had him.. It was all in the body language, I caught on to that very quickly. He had also bitten his former owner hard enough to send him to the hospital for stitches, and bit me in the face twice in the first month or two. He was also a screamer. This is not the same bird I live with today. I worked with him and he came around beautifully. He is no longer a biter (having said that tonight he will bite me), not a screamer, and while his play can turn to aggressive sometimes, he gives very clear signals during that transition and I know how to handle it now. I think it's up to the person dealing with the problem, and I can't see you not being able to bring this bird around. Larry is right about the no warning bite and the territorialism, however. These are just things that come with the job.

[Cheryl]

This is all very interesting. Makes you really think. Are toos more of a biter than macaws? What about LSCs? What is thier pattern? We have a rehome who is very calm. He is about 25 - 30 years old and is my husband's bird. I tried to hold him a few times but he grabs my fingers, thumb or what ever and just looks at me. If I don't back off the pressure builds. If I did the ace bandage and sweatshirt thing in a neutral room would we be friends outside of it and, if he did try to attack, what should I look for? I am getting a Goffins next week. He is just a baby around 8 mos old. When will he start doing some of those things?

[EasySpirit]

timor too is one of my most loving birds and has NEVER bitten me. I find them a bit more hypervigilant and would rather flee than bite. If they do get testy I have found Fait put her beak on me. What idiot would keep doing what they were when a bird gave such clear indication it is not what they wanted...ok, maybe not an idiot...just not uderstanding. It is not often she would want me to stop but it does occur. This bird at 5 years old is so sweet...she cleans my eye lashes, hangs out inside my tea shirt. During breeding season, one look her way and she is shaking, squatting and a quivering. She has shown this behavior even before she was one year old.

Goffin and rose breasted behavior is so much different. I think it has to do with the crest... those that curve backwards (u2's, goffins, rosie) Then there are the forward curving crests (sulfers, black palms, major mitchell). Ok, I know it has nothing to do with the crest itself but it is a difference. Just thought I would give ya'll something to mull over.

[TikiTalks]

timor too is one of my most loving birds and has NEVER bitten me. I find them a bit more hypervigilant and would rather flee than bite. If they do get testy I have found Fait put her beak on me. What idiot would keep doing what they were when a bird gave such clear indication it is not what they wanted...ok, maybe not an idiot...just not uderstanding. It is not often she would want me to stop but it does occur. This bird at 5 years old is so sweet...she cleans my eye lashes, hangs out inside my tea shirt. During breeding season, one look her way and she is shaking, squatting and a quivering. She has shown this behavior even before she was one year old.

Goffin and rose breasted behavior is so much different. I think it has to do with the crest... those that curve backwards (u2's, goffins, rosie) Then there are the forward curving crests (sulfers, black palms, major mitchell). Ok, I know it has nothing to do with the crest itself but it is a difference. Just thought I would give ya'll something to mull over.

what's timor too? And do you have a picture?

[too&me]

One of the species of African Greys, a smaller darker bird than the Congo.

[TikiTalks]

Isn't that a timneh african grey? Maybe I'm confused.

[FoxersArtist]

Thanks everyone for all of the wonderful advice about this U2. I'm going to take it real slow and do my best to learn his triggers before he makes it to biting. I'm not really afraid of him, but I want to be as careful as I can, since i'm on blood thinners. :/ I'm sure i'll be back with many more questions. The U2 is set to arrive next friday.
-Anna

[EasySpirit]

what's timor too? And do you have a picture?
There are four subcatergories of lesser sulfers. There is the lesser sulfer, citron, abbotti and timor. They come from the timor islands and are the smallest of the lsc toos.

Whas at parrot festival today and met a man who breeds timors...has 4 pairs. He thought Fait was a very good looking timor.

Peggy

[too&me]

I stand corrected thought you were using a pet name for timneh. oops

[EasySpirit]

Hey Anna. Linus used to go from play to aggression very quickly when I first had him.. It was all in the body language, I caught on to that very quickly. He had also bitten his former owner hard enough to send him to the hospital for stitches, and bit me in the face twice in the first month or two. He was also a screamer. This is not the same bird I live with today. I worked with him and he came around beautifully. He is no longer a biter (having said that tonight he will bite me), not a screamer, and while his play can turn to aggressive sometimes, he gives very clear signals during that transition and I know how to handle it now. I think it's up to the person dealing with the problem, and I can't see you not being able to bring this bird around. Larry is right about the no warning bite and the territorialism, however. These are just things that come with the job.

Going from play to aggression very quickly... Thought about this for a bit. This is seen with dogs. Dogs get into "drive", very difficult to get them out of drive. That is when they fight and don't stop and if a pit bull they thrive on the pain (gentle training with them goes a long way). Using drive has advantage such as in the sport we do...flyball. You will see border collies in drive to get a tennis ball...nothing else exists for them. Yes it is easy to go from play to aggression. Watch what type of play you are doing and when to tone it down.

Easy

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Going from play to aggression very quickly... Thought about this for a bit. This is seen with dogs. Dogs get into "drive", very difficult to get them out of drive. That is when they fight and don't stop and if a pit bull they thrive on the pain (gentle training with them goes a long way). Using drive has advantage such as in the sport we do...flyball. You will see border collies in drive to get a tennis ball...nothing else exists for them. Yes it is easy to go from play to aggression. Watch what type of play you are doing and when to tone it down.

Easy

When Linus is feeling happy and frisky, he puffs up, raises the crest and jumps up and down. It's very very cute, but if it goes on too long, he stops jumping and starts banging his beak on the ground. That's when we're on the verge of trouble. It's like he gets hysterical and can no longer control himself. I can still 'talk him down' at this point but my daughter didn't listen to me about his tendency to snap and learned the hard way that mother is always right.