Jen - Please Post About Reggie Here

[Larry, Baby and Me]

To all HB family --- please keep this thread clear of posts for the time being.

Jen,

Please open a dialog about Reggie here...

I have gone through Heavy metal toxins with my 4-1/2 yeard Umbie hen. So I do have a bit of experience in this area. I am also the one that has spear-headed the lead in cage paint tests. I also have one of the best certified avian vets that can be found anywhere. She has consulted me many times on this issue.

So here goes...

There is no doubt that Reggie has zinc poisoning - his tests of 4.0 proves that - so there is no need to establish any thing else. He has been poisoned.

Now - what can be done...

This is what my vet had me do for Baby...

1. Start a natural chealating medication:

6 cc Metamucile
2 cc Mineral Oil
All the peanut butter he can eat - regular Jiff. No fat free stuff.

Get a few feeding syringes. Warm up 2 - 3 tablespoons of bottled water in the microwave. Mix in some Metamucile until it is bit soupy. Draw 2 cc of Mineral oil into the syringe and then draw in 6 cc of the Metamucile liquid. That will be a total of 8 cc.

Administer this to him by either placing the syringe to the back side of his beak/mouth or he might lick or even pump the mixture.

Feed this 3 times a day - once in the morning, once in mid afternoon and once just before putting him to bed for the night.

If you can only give it to him once a day - then give it to him just before bed time.

Here is how this works... the Metamucile is rufage - it helps the crop, gizzard, and stomach get cleaned out. The mineral oil coats the lining of the gizzard. And the peanut butter is a binding agent.... binds the toxins and flushes them out instead of digesting. None of this will hurt him. It will help clean him out.

This method is well known in the avian medical community - just do a google and you will find it online as well.

Now that you have him on the natural cheleating then you must find out where he got the zinc or is getting the zinc... two big differences here.

Let's talk about where he is getting the zinc... It could be a piece or pieces of metal in his gizzard that he is slowly digesting.

With that said - a full body X-ray is in order to rule in or rule out metal in his gizzard.

Usually zinc and lead poisoning go hand in hand. Where there is one - there is the other, because of the types of objects we have in our homes.

With the blood test - first vile...
I suggest that you have a blood test done on him for lead. Avians should have zero lead in their system. So if the reusluts come back as even a trace amont of lead - then he also has lead poisoning.

Also - the vet should examine and test for the following.

Gram smear -- poop check. He will poop when he is there. Just have a paper towel handy.

Eyes
Ears
Nares
Throat
Vent
Preen gland
Feather condition (stress bars and overall appearance)

With the blood test - second vile...
Avian CBC (Complete Blood Count)
Avian Chemistries
Avian Bile Acids

So - either...

1. He "has" ingested zinc and it IS sill in his gizzard slowly poisoning him (internal source).

2. He has" ingested zinc and it is NOT in his gizzard but he IS continuing to ingest it (external source).

2. He has" ingested zinc and it is NOT in his gizzard but he is NOT continuing to ingest it, but it is working through his system and will eventually be shed of it.

You must determine which of the above it is. And that can only be done with more tests as I outlined above.

I will add --- if he chewed on varnished wood a year ago and it contained zinc - he would have been very sick at that time. Once a bird injests heavy metals such as zinc - it doesn't take long to show the symptoms.

Jen - please post here to let us know what is going on. We are all worried.

[jmfleish]

Ok, I went to sleep last night...not that I'm sleeping much. A good starting point on this whole fiasco would be when I took him in to the UW last April because he was doing this weird shaking of his leg every now and then as well as the whole running around thing. They did a CBC then as well as a full exam and noticed that his leg was stiff, so they did an X-ray then and ruled the problem soft tissue damage. They also noticed upon exam that he had started feather picking. I think it was apparent that he was picking the leg that was injured at that time, but they found signs of picking on the chest as well. They sent us home saying he just needed to heal.

From there the picking started getting worse and Reggie started pulling out every new tail feather that came in that was about a centimeter long. It was a mess and I would end up coming home to blood everywhere. The first few times were horribly scary but after that, the clotting started happening much faster. All of Reggie's picking has been only new feathers. Those are the ones that seem to bother him.

I waited maybe a month before Reggie showed another symptom that scared me to death. He started moving his head and neck around in a very exaggerated way, kind of like the "snake dance" that greys do, but much more exaggerated. It was like he had something stuck in his throat. I could get him to do the motion simply by putting a tiny bit of pressure on his neck. Getting into the UW takes days and I didn't want to wait, so I took him to another vet the very next day who has a lot of experience with birds. Same outcome, blood was drawn, everything came out great and Reggie was presumed healthy.

Since then, his picking has just increased and he doesn't seem himself. I started doing a lot of research on feather picking and realized what a fool I was for not asking for specific tests such as giardia, asper, and heavy metal. So, Reggie finally went back last Monday and I made them run a giardia test. Under the microscope, nothing was seen but they said there was another test they would run. We decided not to bother with asper because it just seemed that Reggie was not showing symptoms of asper. We did lead and zinc tests and he had a full physical. He was once again touted as a healthy bird and sent home. I got the phone call on Wednesday that the zinc tests came back positive. I haven't asked about the lead, but assumed that was completely negative...I will ask to make sure.

I have no idea what the blood tests included, so I will ask about bile. I'm guessing they weren't included. All of the blood tests they did on Reggie came back great though. I was particularly worried about his liver because one side of his bottom beak is growing incredibly quickly. They said the liver looked great. And that's where I am right now. I'm going in tomorrow with my youngest Ekkie because he looks pretty bad as far as picking goes. I recently changed his diet and he started getting new feathers, but now I'm worried sick that he has zinc poisoning too. I'm taking my grey with just to get a zinc level on him. I think I'm going to take Reggie with as well and ask for an X-ray. One of the UW vets is speaking at our bird club today about feather picking of all things. I think I will go to that just so I can ask him more questions. The two small species vets that I generally see with my birds are both ACZM certified and have been working with birds for years. They also teach at the vet school. I do trust them, but sometimes I wonder if they aren't aggressive enough with treatment. I will talk to Sladky today and make sure that he understands where I stand and how serious I am about getting this taken care of. Sometimes you just have to be very vocal to get anywhere!:) As for other vets, we really just don't have any in Wisconsin whom really treat birds except possibly in the Milwaukee area, but I don't have access to a car that I could use a lot to get them back and forth from Milwaukee to Madison. The vet school should be very competent but I think I have to be very pushy about what I want done.

Now, onto questions previously asked:

<<Has he been DNA'd - is he truely a male?>> - Yes, he's been surgically sexed and tattooed under the right wing and I had him DNA tested. He's definitely male.

<<When a bird gets into zinc or lead - they react within a matter of a couple days --- and most within a couple of hours... so a year ago is not the source.>> - I'd say that the symptoms started showing up in April when I first took him in. If he was getting small amounts of zinc on a regular basis, couldn't that put the time of ingestion back a bit?

<<You said - "copper colored" --- I agree it could be brass - brass is deadly... copper and zinc mixture.>> The Birdie Butlers are made by Birds Etc. I will ask exactly what the material is that the outside of the valves is made of. In the meantime, I have two new ones coming that are all SS valves. I use these bottles with all of my birds and they get rotated around, so one bird doesn't always get the same bottle. Wouldn't my other birds be also showing symptoms if it was the bottles? Three of the five look incredibly healthy. I took the bottles away from Taco SIE and Reggie, but as I said, I couldn't get Reggie to use the water dish. I will work on that today.

As for what birdie butlers are, they are basically a self contained watering system. The case is PVC, a white top that you can remove to fill and a clear cylinder that holds the water that a white bend is attached to. The valve is mounted on the end of the bend and it is attached to the cage with all SS hardware.

<<Please - let's have an understanding right now - we don't have time for niceties --- do not believe any supplier about the safety of their products. I will tell you more later. Right now - let's get reggie on the road to recovery.>> - I agree 100% and removed all birdie bagels from his cage. I also asked about having one tested and they can send me to a lab that will do it. So, another thing to have done.

<<It is well known in the avian medical community that heavy metal toxins is a couse of plucking. Note - I said is a cause... there are many causes -- metal toxins are the most common cause... after stress and boredom.>> - Yes, my vet drilled this into my head when I got the diagnosis...the heavy metal poisoning may not have anything to do with the picking, but he's never, ever picked before and the picking is so weird. All tail feathers as soon as they start to come in. He leaves his flights completely alone though. All feathers he ever goes after are brand new ones that have just started coming in and have blood in them.

<<What does he wheight now.. and what did he weigh in the past --- what is his normal weight range???>> - When I first got him, 4.5 years ago, he weighed about 350 grams. He steadily gained weight with me and he's been solid at about 390 grams when he's clipped and 410 grams when he's fully flighted. When this began, he was clipped (he was being bad, so out came the scissors) and he weighed in at 390 grams. I just weighed him again last weekend and he was up to 414 grams, but he's fully flighted now. I also weighed him right before I took him in to his vet appointment last Monday to make sure that my scale is right and he came in at 404 grams then and after several poops at the vet, weighed in at 400 grams there. So, I'm fairly confident my scale is accurate. I don't make it a habit of weighing my birds every week. I just do it when I'm curious or they feel light. I know I should probably keep a record.

<<Does he appear to be cold - shaking a little??>> - Yes! I've seen him shake a lot but I always just thought it was nerves. When he calms down, he will stop. He has a very bad relationship with my grey and they are constantly antagonizing each other. He used to come out of his cage right away for me and over the last several months, he's been very hesitant to do so and will only come out if I'm not exclusively paying attention to him. If I try to go into his cage for him, he will go to the back and sit, so I just let him come out on his own now. Once he comes out onto the porch door, I will pet him and talk to him then and that's when I see the shaking. I haven't noticed it any other time.

<<Does he play as he used to?>> - Reggie has never been much of a player but more of a perch potato. He's definitely not as active as he once was and I've felt that there was something in his demeanor that was off, but it was so subtle.

<<Does he perch with both feet on the perch.>> - Both, I see him rest and sleep with one foot up a lot, but he will perch with both feet solidly. I think he does still sleep on one foot though, I know he naps on one foot when I have him out.

<<Explain exactly what he has been doing and what was it that caused you to take him to the vet?>> - I think I pretty much summed that up in the first few paragraphs of the post. It was mostly that weird moving around, like he had bugs on him, that had me concerned.

I think that does it for now. I'll be on and off the computer today. I have to do laundry and a few other things. Thank you so much for your help. I will also go to the store today and get the ingredients for the natural chelation therapy and start that immediately.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Jen,

I am on line... reading your post.

Stick around... I will post more within the half hour. There is a lot to digest here.

[jmfleish]

Thanks Larry, I'm here but I keep getting logged off...will wait for your reply.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Jen --- are you here???

Get rid of ALL the Birdy Butlers NOW...

http://www.exoticwooddreams.com/catalog20/image2/101042lg.jpg

PVC - is poison..

More on that later

The fittings look like copper - maybe brass - but looks more like copper.

Either way - both metals are deadly.

[EasySpirit]

Regarding vet availability. Some have called consultations to vets at the other end of the country and that is a way to gain expert knowledge.

Food. What type of food? You have pellets, colored...these are frequently implicated in toe tapping other behaviors.

Pain. If a bird gets injured they will chew or bite the area just as we would rub the area because of pain. Metacam, an antiinflamatory has been used for pain in birds. Now there is some scarey stuff written about it. A few of mine have used it for short term...vet did not want it used more than 7 days.

Easy

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Please - no other posts in this thread except Jen and me and now Easy... at this time. See my first post in this thread.

Easy - we need you to stick around... Reggie also has a beak growing condition that we need to sort out....

We could use your help with the beak growing thing as well as telephone consulting with vets and others you know across the country.

Thanks

[jmfleish]

Ok, birdie butlers gone, but we use PVC for our pipes, so I always thought it safe to use.

As for diet, I've been blessed with a 'too who is not picky. I have SS bowls that I feed him from and I tested them with HCL last night...they are indeed SS. Reggie does get some pellets from Fruit Loop Zupreem because it's the only kind my Conure will eat, to Roudybush, to TOPs. He also gets plenty of fresh foods, sprouts, kale, mustard greens, squash of varying types, mango, papaya, Old World grains such as kamut, millet, spelt, etc, green beans, pea pods, pears without the skin, bell peppers if I can get them organic, your typical birdie fare. I try to stay away from the more common foods that just don't seem to have a whole lot of nutrition. Vary rarely will I offer up grapes but I have been known to give a bit of apple. My grey loves apple. We've been doing a little bit of clementine now too as well as pomegranate. I try to do more veggies and less fruits. Reggie will eat anything I give him, but he's never been a big eater. He's on the low end of the scale for D2 weights and has always been lean.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Ok, birdie butlers gone, but we use PVC for our pipes, so I always thought it safe to use.
He's on the low end of the scale for D2 weights and has always been lean.

Last thing first. Good sign - his weight remains steady and eating well - as well as can be expected for most Tooz.

PVC - I have done tons of research on this. I will post a new thread on it today. I have to compile my many many notes and give the reader's digest version. I will start a new thread on PVC later on today.

The beak growth does seem like it fits in here somehow but I don't know how. I will solicite some of the "experts" here ---

More to follow on this thread soon...

[Larry, Baby and Me]

The shaking - like he is cold...

What this is --- tremors. His nervous system is affected... the temors are something like "essential tremors" in humans...

http://www.neurologychannel.com/tremor/

Copper might be playing a part in all this as well... I don't know at the moment but I will research the symptoms of copper poisoning in avians today.

The beak growth --- we have to get info on that from other Happy Birdy family members.

I am not saying that the Birdie Butlers are the cause... it is only a guess - that is all we can do is guess and rule in or rule out where he "got" or is "getting" the toxins.

The Birdie Butlers are highly suspect because of the PVC and Copper.

[EasySpirit]

http://www.medicalcenterforbirds.com/

This link is to Dr Brian Speer. His practice is exclusively AVian. He does provide phone consultation.

Regarding beak overgrowth. It depends on how the over growth is occurring. Is it just very long? that can come from liver disease or not chewing.

Uneven growth...this is generally from trauma along the beak and generally at the juncter of the upper and lower beaks. Any trauma in this area and on one side will encourage an irregular growth. Dr Brian Speer talked about this at the seminar he was part of last Oct at Texas A&M. I have seen a few really bad beaks from splits on a Macaw to a very extreme irregular growth on a U2. The vet on the U2 said it could not be fixed. I fixed it and the owner took the bird back to the vet to show the difference. That beak was almost a complete reshaping. the bird had to come several times...a little done at a time...to get it fully corrected. To do this you need to know and understand the shape of a beak. The natural stop on the inside was missing on the too so had to be added back in.

One of the oddest beaks to groom was a hybrid. This bird had the upper beak of a Green wing and the lower beak of a B&G. Look at pics to see the difference in beaks for these 2 birds. A compromise was done for the bird. He was functional and able to eat.

I will keep reading throughout the day and let me know if you have anymore questions.

Easy

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Easy -- here is what Jen said....

"I was particularly worried about his liver because one side of his bottom beak is growing incredibly quickly. "

Easy - would liver do this? If not liver then what?

Jen - we need detailed info on the beak growth.

When did you notice the rapid growth?

Could take some pics and post here? That would help.

[EasySpirit]

Easy -- here is what Jen said....

"I was particularly worried about his liver because one side of his bottom beak is growing incredibly quickly. "

.


This sounds more trauma related. As simple as bumping the beak, running beak up and down a cage bar or going across the cage bars with beak (although the later is more upper beak).

The beak is gradually brought down to be even. a lot of time the overgrowth portion of the beak is dead and a clipper can gradually start trimming it down. Dremmel or heavy duty nail file also helps bring down the high edge of the beak. Remember beaks have nerve endings and blood supply so you must go slow. I use both corn starch and cauterize. I try not to cauterize but have to from time to time. People have brought birds to me with extreme lengths in nails. To trim even close to the right shape might bring on some bleeding. For nails, corn starch or even bar of soap and run nail through that. I use the flat end of the tip on a craft wood burning tool. both work well but bleeding can restart. The clients I see do not stay and wait so I may use the cautery then. It has to be done right so don't just go out and do this.

Easy

[jmfleish]

I agree that the birdie butlers are my highest suspect along with the birdie bagels. As for the beak growth, it's generally due to liver problems which zinc can cause. This overgrowth has happened in the last few weeks. He's never had any problems with beak overgrowth until just recently. I dremelled it down about two weeks ago and it's growing back very quickly. It's the "point" of the bottom beak on the left side I think. That's the only part that's growing out of control...it's very strange.

Here is a story about an Eclectus with zinc poisoning and she talks about beak growth as well:

http://www.landofvos.com/tales/batmb/beauty.html

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Easy --- Why does this sound more like trauma related?

[jmfleish]

I'll see if I can get a picture of his beak. If you look at him the right side of the bottom beak looks like it broke off and the left side looks normal, but when you open his beak, you can see that the overgrowth is really on the left side. I just noticed this in the last few weeks. I think I dremelled it about a week ago and it's already growing back to where it was.

[EasySpirit]

Those with liver disease...I have not seen the beak grow that way. It seemed to affect both upper and lower beak and it was not an uneven growth.

On a too, they have the two points on the lower beak. Even if you trim it, close the beak and see how the beak aligns. Once a beak gets off kilter the bird sometimes maintains a position of when it was off kilter. You may have to trim the over growth side just a bit shorter than the other side to force a repositioning. Not a lot, just a little at a time.

Regarding finding the source for metal....Cage, toys are the obvious things. Does your bird ever get on the ground, chew a pair of glasses or get into other house hold items? Do you let him play with toothbrushes. Many are manufactured with a metal filament in the bristles.

Easy

[jmfleish]

Ok, I got a few pictures of his beak. I guess it's not that impressive other than the fact that I just dremmeled the left side a week ago and it's growing back already. DSCN2686 is the right side which is the normal side. DSCN2688 is the left side, the overgrown side. It's the points of the bottom beak that stick out that you should look at. I tried to get a picture of his beak open but I think that's going to take two people. He's very easy going and will even let me dremel his beak without a towel, but getting him to open up was not going to be happening!:) He's also currently sitting on my computer monitor and there is no shaking at all. He's on one foot and grinding his beak.

[jmfleish]

Nope, no tooth brushes, I was told about that a long time ago and took them away from him as he does love them, mostly the soft plastic pieces on the handle that can be easily chewed off. He hasn't had them in years. Most of his toys are SS. I took out all toys that I couldn't identify as well as all the birdie bagels. The only thing I can't be certain of is the cage and I will have that tested.

He does get on the ground every so often but I've never seen him chew on anything metal. He used to go for my remote controls, phones, computer cables, etc. Even those have been safe for years though because I'm careful about where I put them.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

The only thing I can't be certain of is the cage and I will have that tested.

Jen - I understand Reggie's cage is an HQ...

Here are Michelle's test results - I don't think she will mind me posting them here...

Cage one - a white HQ dometop cage, 36"x28" with the "open top"
feature (don't know if they make this model anymore. I've had it two
years or more):
Lead: 80 ppm
Zinc: 13,200 ppm (he said anything over 250 ppm is a concern)

[EasySpirit]

Beak grooming.

the right side has a gap between the two beaks which indicates the left side is too high.

I saw enough of the left side and is as I thought. It is too high and your bird is letting the upper part lay in the notched area (curved area between the two points.) I would take the left down further, round it off to encourage the upper beak to to rest on the point some.

This could be from disease but I see this more from an injury or running a beak up and down a cage bar.

Easy

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Jen, as you can see - this HQ cage tested off the charts... highly toxic.

I have worked steady on toxins in cage paint since Aug of last year.

Without going into all the details right now - for time is of the essence....

Reggies HQ cage is most likely highly toxic as well.

Anyone else that has an HQ cage - listen up... most likely ALL HQ cages will test off the charts with zinc.

Now - let me say this.... the cage is not Kryptonite in itself. Just because it is toxic does not necessarily mean that Regggie is getting his zinc poisoning from his cage. He has to ingest paint particles to get the zinc poison.

INGESTION/DIGESTION
If the bars show signs of wear - no matter how minute... or you see paint missing where he might have chewed on the bars - then assume that he has ingested paint particles.

LEACHING
If you find that the cage paint is intact and looks like new (inspect every inch of it) - he might still be getting the zinc from the cage by merely beaking/mouthing the bars. This would be zinc that is on the surface of the paint... leaching out.

If he were my bird -- and that is how I always have to look at situations like this...

1. SS water and food dishes only - if a magnet sticks to a SS dish - then it is of poor SS quality. If a magnet does not stick then it is of high SS quality. High SS quality is preferred.

2. Only Natural woods to chew on. Pine is good.

3. No plastics anywhere....

4. SS chains and links ONLY. DO the magnet test.

5. No other metals allowed near any of your birds -- only SS for ALL metals.

6. Feed bottled water only - do not feed distilled water... a good quality spring water.

7. Diet - I am not so sure right now - I would eliminate colored pellets and go from there.

8. And this is very important.... weigh him daily - at the same time each day - right after the first big poop in the morning. Keep a log - this is a must to monitor his weight.

9. Keep a journal - daily --- and take pics of him - at least once a week. Monitoring is most important.

10. Administer the natural cheleating stuff I outlined earlier. You might have to keep this up for at least 6 months to a couple years. We will see.

11. Get him out of that cage. If you co not have another cage then I would recommend Kings SS (they do pass the magnet test) or Kings European line ( they test toxin free). Whenever I recommend a cage or toy or anything else - I have NOT gotten my info from the ones who sell the things - but from independent tests performed by one of us here on HappyBirdy.

If you want to have his cage tested... go to www.happybirdy.com (http://www.happybirdy.com) and scroll down -- it gives all you need to know.

Enough for now... I will monitor this thread throughout the day.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

This could be from disease but I see this more from an injury or running a beak up and down a cage bar. Easy

To me --- it would be too coincidental to have "proven" zinc in his system and the beak growth to be cause by trauma. Heavy metal poisioning does affect major organs which "can" cause rapid beak growth.

Whichever the case - Easy is the best one to direct you on how to trim the beak.

[EasySpirit]

To me --- it would be too coincidental to have "proven" zinc in his system and the beak growth to be cause by trauma. Heavy metal poisioning does affect major organs which "can" cause rapid beak growth.

Whichever the case - Easy is the best one to direct you on how to trim the beak.


Yes, heavy metal poisoning does affect beak growth, you are so right. I usually see the growth universal versus one point of only the lower beak. As with disease, heavy metal...more likely to see it overall. Just a thought.

Easy

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Here is some info that Dot PMd me....

Dr. Speer does phone consultations. When my Scarlet started over-preening, I had my vet fax him all the test results and then both the vet and I consulted with him. It was very inexpensive, I thought, for his expertise. (Maybe $30-$40?) Here is contact information if she wishes to contact him: Oakley, CA - Brian Speer (Oakley Vet & Bird Hosp) - 925-625-1878.

[jmfleish]

Yes, Reggie and my grey are both in HQ cages. I put a small amount of HCl on the inside of the pan of Reggie's cage last night and got no reaction. I haven't tried Tuchie's cage yet. The two Ekkies are in Kings cages but I don't know if they are the European line or not. How can you tell? My Patagonian Conure is in a Neon cage that came with her when I got her. Out of all the cages, the Neon one is the one that seems to have the most damage. I will look over Reggie's cage again very carefully, but as I mentioned, it's in pristine condition as he's never been much of a destructive bird. I will also give Dr. Speer's info to my vet.

My biggest question right now is, should I go forward with the chemical chelation therapy that my vet will be supplying me or should I just stick with the natural one listed here. My vet wanted me to remove everything suspect and just wait it out. She feels the chelation isn't warranted in situations where zinc is a chronic problem. I told her on Friday that I didn't feel comfortable with the "wait and see" approach and wanted to start the chelation therapy. Other than the fact that it's toxic and will make Reggie sick, is there a reason I shouldn't just go ahead with that?

[EasySpirit]

My thought is I would do a consultation with Brian Speer. He sees birds from all types of settings facing similar situations and sees a variety of types of birds including ones more sensitive to metals and diets than the parrots (ie toucans etc.) and has experience to back up what he says. I am concerned about Zinc toxicity being a chronic problem and not wanting to do anything. My thought on this is even if chronic it could have on going damage.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

You put a small amount of HCL on the pan???? HydroChloric Acid???

If so - you are using a home test method to test for the presence of zinc????

Please go to www.happybirdy.com (http://www.happybirdy.com) and scroll down and read all of that.

"I haven't tried Tuchie's cage yet. The two Ekkies are in Kings cages but I don't know if they are the European line or not. How can you tell?"

Call Kings - go to their web site to get their number.

"My biggest question right now is, should I go forward with the chemical chelation therapy that my vet will be supplying me or should I just stick with the natural one listed here."

I don't know the answer to that one... I am not a vet. My concern is that the vet you have is perhaps not on track with this whole thing. I would get more imput - tests - second opinions - etc from trusted vets. Just My Opinion.

"My vet wanted me to remove everything suspect and just wait it out."

This is certainly not my way of handeling things - and it looks like you are uncomfortable with this as well --- you and I are on the same page - that Is wy IMHO - another vet might be in order.

"She feels the chelation isn't warranted in situations where zinc is a chronic problem. I told her on Friday that I didn't feel comfortable with the "wait and see" approach and wanted to start the chelation therapy. Other than the fact that it's toxic and will make Reggie sick, is there a reason I shouldn't just go ahead with that?"

Again - I am not a vet --- referrence the above... Yes - chemical chelation therapy is stressful to a bird... but if it is needed then it is needed.... The therapy is better than a very very sick bird from the zinc.

It confuses me -- that the vet is saying "chronic problem"... and she is making her decision of treatment or no treatment on that conclusion. This just does not make any sense... He has a "present" level of 4.0 --- what does it matter if it is labeled chronic (ong term) to the method of treatment or no treatment???

The Metamucil mix will not hurt him in any way... It can also be used for birds that are not sick - good for the digestion... But in Reggies case --- we cannot rely on this method alone... his levels are high and he "might" need other treatments.

He does have to be closely monitored as I said earlier. I just don't like wait and see as much as you don't like it.

I think calling Dr. Speer might be the next step. If he does not help - then we will find some vet that will.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Hey Easy... I was typing my last post while you were typing yours...

We are on the same page with our thoughts on this ....

[jmfleish]

Hi all, sorry I've taken so long to get back to you...I'm exhausted and stressed...

I did talk to Dr. Kurt Sladky last night at our bird meeting. I will be seeing him as Dr. Paul-Murphy will be at the vet school for the next two weeks. They go back and forth on who sees patients and who teaches, from what I understand.

Dr. Sladky does think that we need to get a full body radiograph on Reggie in order to rule out any zinc pieces within his system. He feels that chelation is definitely warranted if we find whole pieces in him. If nothing is found, they can rule it as chronic exposure and Sladky said that until we figure out where it's coming from, chelation really won't do a whole lot of good. He said that Reggie's numbers are high but not alarmingly so and because he seems healthy, he feels that if we can rule out a foreign body of zinc in Reggie and can remove whatever it is in his environment that is causing it that chelation won't even be necessary. He said that the zinc will filter itself out of his body very quickly once the source has been removed. The hard thing is figuring out what is causing it. I take Taco and Tuchis in today at 1pm but won't have any results right away since zinc tests have to be sent out to the state lab.

I do feel better after talking to Dr. Sladky last night. Dr. Sladky and Dr. Paul-Murphy are two of only 110 vets in the entire world who are board certified in zoological medicine. Dr. Sladky tried to explain last night what the difference between the two certifications (zoological versus avian) are and why he decided not to be certified in avian medicine. He feels that the exam and research needed to get zoo certified is much more rigorous than what the avian certification requires and covers so much more that going back to do the avian certification is not something that he would benefit from. The talk about feather picking and how he goes about finding the reasons behind feather picking was also very helpful, so I now know how he goes about identifying feather picking problems and how he handles heavy metal toxicosis. I do truly trust both of these vets and they've seen all my birds many times. I think that sometimes they just have too much on their plate though, so I have to be more rigorous in pushing what I want and letting them know where I stand. I do think my birds are in good hands.

I will report what more we find from the testing of Taco and Cooper and what else Dr. Sladky decides to do with Reggie. Until then, more identifying of where the zinc is coming from....

[Larry, Baby and Me]

so I have to be more rigorous in pushing what I want and letting them know where I stand. I do think my birds are in good hands.

Until then, more identifying of where the zinc is coming from....

Hey Jen,

All what you said makes me feel a whole lot better. Yes - I guess we all can take a lesson from what you are going through... we do have to take control of situations when they just don't make sense to us. I am so sorry you and Reggie are going through this - but what you shared here someday might save a bird's life.

Identifying the zinc... take a magnet to everything - if it sticks then trash it. I buy all my SS parts - links and the likes from my local hardware stores. I take a magnet along with me. I test every part before I buy it. I have been surprised that some parts in the SS drawer are SS but the magnet sticks somewhat to some of them. I only buy SS that the magent does not stick to at all.

Getting rid of the Birdie Butler might do the trick - but the metal on them looks like copper - which is not good either. The PVC in them could be leaching out lead - but not zinc. His HQ cage most likely is high in zinc. Who knows if enough is leaching to the surface to give him a problem.

Other items that are loaded with zinc:

Shampoo
Hair Conditioner
Hair coloring
Makeup
Handcream
Lotions
Just about anything that women would apply to their skin has zinc in it.

Look at the ingredients of ALL health and beauty products you use. Most likely you will find zinc and zinc-oxide as a main ingirdient

I would only feed your birds bottled spring water. If you are on a well - there could be contaminants that come and go in it. If you are on city water - it is loaded with chlorine... they add that to kill some of the gremlins in the water and the bad odor.

Please keep us posted. We are on pins and needles.

Oh by the way... please share with us what you learned about plucking.

Thank you so much.

[jmfleish]

Thanks everyone for all the support and wonderful information. Yesterday, Tuchis and Taco were deemed healthy upon physical exam other than Taco's feather picking. I didn't have blood run on Tuchis because he seems so healthy, just Taco, and I should be getting those results back today. Zinc was done on both and those should be back by the end of the week. Reggie is scheduled for a radiograph on Friday at 2pm. They will be setting a perch in a box and then putting Reggie on the perch so they don't have to put him under. Sladky said that all we need to do is get an idea of whether or not there's zinc metal in him, so him standing completely still isn't necessary.

I do feel a lot better about things especially after all the chattering that I've done with Dr. Sladky. I know that he mentioned in his discussion on feather picking that heavy metal poisoning is one thing he feels is very strongly about testing for in picking birds right away but that they do get a lot of resistence from clients about wanting to spend the least amount of money possible, so sometimes it doesn't get run immediately. I think that we do need to be forceful with our vets sometimes to make sure they understand where we are coming from. The fact that I went out and did my research on feather picking helped a great deal in this situation as well. My vets are good, but also very busy and I had to really let them know exactly where I stood with this and let them know that money was not an issue...although now I'm completely broke!:) Not that it matters, as long as all my guys are healthy and happy and I think we are starting to get to that point.

As for food, everyone does get a bit of Roudybush and the Fruit Loop Zupreem. I have read that article about metal pieces in the food and will offer the URL here for those of you who haven't read it yet. It's very scary, but just another thing I guess we have to be looking for. I haven't tested their food yet, but need to do that too. It's a never ending battle or so it seems.

As for synthetic vitamins in processed human food, I cannot stress this enough! Check your labels. I've always been against feeding regular cereals and pastas because they are almost all fortified. Fortified for humans, not for birds. This extra synthetic stuff they add to our food can cause havoc on our birds. I was always more worried about iron than anything else. I've been a label reader for years now and really try not to feed my guys any foods that contain anything fortified in them. Actually, I feed very little processed foods anymore but, you can get cereals and pastas from food co-ops or places like Whole Foods that have nothing "extra" in them. You can also get better grains in those products. My guys love the kamut noodles and you can get them in spelt and a variety of other Old World grains that are so much healthier for them.

I'm a stickler for SS too which is why this is so ironic that this is happening. I did find some things in Reggie's cage that were questionable and have removed them, but for the most part, all of his toys that have metal on them, are made completely from SS and that's another thing that I really advocate!

Beauty products...I've stopped using almost everything. Obviously, I wash my hair with shampoo and conditioner and I use mild soaps but I don't use anything that is anti-bacterial, something else I highly suggest, and I wear no perfumes or other stuff on my body for the most part. I'm allergic to nickel, so a lot of these products are really hard on me as well and I have to be careful. I will check the few things I do use and see what they contain, but my laundry and body are almost completely free of anything with dyes or odors.

I still have to have the water checked but it is city water. Not that it couldn't be coming from the pipes in the house. Until then, I will probably switch to bottled water just to rule that out as well.

I do think that the hardest part in my situation is figuring out what is causing the toxicosis and I will continue to let everyone know my progress. I do hope that this will be helpful to others in the future, so I will keep updating and any suggestions that anyone has, feel free to throw my way!:)

Here is the article about metal pieces in food for those who are interested...very scary stuff:

http://www.shynefoundation.org/article_erb.html (http://www.shynefoundation.org/article_erb.html)