Galvanized Wire

[birdscomefirst]

I agree with Larry, lets go a step at as time.

I have a problem with the "Sanctuary". here is why.

You can't visit it to check it out.

Her excuse about not taking pictures is lame.

I live about 90 minutes from Stanwood WA , which is the location of the place. It shouldnt be a mess. It should not have been affected by the recent storms. Their shouldnt be cords all over the place etc.

The pictures of the aviaries show that they are made of cheap PVC tubing and galvanized wire. Both unsafe for parrots.

I am not saying that the place is a problem, I just wouldnt be comfortable with those answers from the place. I think it is a Laurie Keene that runs the thing.

Just my two cents.

If this is a behavioral issue, lets try to work on the birds behavior problems. I am willing to help in any way that i can.

Bill

[Don]

Bill - you don't seem to like ""and galvanized wire.""

What would you have us use ?

Don

[birdscomefirst]

Hi Don,

Galvanized wire is coated with zinc to inhibit corrosion. Zinc when ingested is deadly to birds. It will at least contribute to heavy metal toxicity and at it's worst, kill.

I would have used stainless steel wire as even if it gets a coating of rust, rust (iron oxide) is not harmful. Aside form that, I would use a powder coated grid material which is expensive but can be found.

The argument would be the cost of the stainless wire vs. the galvanized wire, but the cost is not the point.

Its a safety issue for the birds. Almost any bird kept in an aviary made of galvanized wire will test positive for some level of heavy metal toxicity. It is a only a matter of how much a bird will ingest as it climbs around on the wire, using it's beak, before signs of heavy metal toxicosis begins to appear.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill - you don't seem to like ""and galvanized wire.""

What would you have us use ?

Don

[Don]

Bill, I know what GAW wire is, I fabricate doors and cages. I also have many birds in GAW cages, some for over 20 years and they are still in perfect feather and still producing healthy babies - I have 40+ pairs and spares, All in GAW wire.

You used the fact that someone kept birds in GAW wire as a very negative point - I certainly hope you don't do that to me.

Don

[Birdlover]

I moved these posts to a separate thread so we could discuss more.

I also use GAW for my aviaries. If I could, yes I would much rather use stainless steel wire, but it is far beyond my means. To say money isnt an issue - I agree to a point but there is the reality side of things too. For one of my flights (measuring 4 feet wide, 8 feet long and 6 feet high) I paid $489.50. I had asked about SS in the same dimensions and it was over $2000. Multiply that by 8 flights and you can see where money can become an issue. If you dont have it, you cant spend it ;)

I was taught to soak the GAW in vinegar and scrape the galvanized stuff off. It has worked well for me (I do not have the "white rust" on my flights). It is tedious and hard but it can be done. I have had some of my birds in these flights for over 15 years.

The only powder coated stuff I have seen doesnt seem to hold up to being outside. It ends up flaking off the wire. Do you know of some that doesnt?

[Don]

I just had 3 100' rolls of 1"x3"x36" 11 ga. dropped off here - almost $1500.

I have most of my doors and frames with GAW wire powdercoated - it needs to be thoroughly sandblasted/media etched so the 2 stage powdercoating will have some 'tooth' to hold with - or else it flakes off in less than a season.

Don

[birdscomefirst]

I am not labeling anyone as good or bad for using the wire. I am only pointing out that it has been the cause of heavy metal toxicity in some aviary birds.

It may never get to a level where symptoms are present.

Egg laying and living are not the best test for zinc toxicosis. Many birds kept in cages or aviaries made of galvanized wire test positive for some level of heavy metal toxicosis. It may be another ten years before the level is high enough to cause symptoms.

The Zinc is only ingested if a bird happens to climb on the wire using its beak. Often that is not at a frequent enough rate to cause zinc toxicosis to show up at high levels.

do a google search for galvanized wire zinc toxicity just typed that way and you will get many articles written by avian vets as well as articles written by avian specialists that support my point.

I only point out the possible problem because it does exist. I am not judging anyone.

If a bird in a cage or enclosure made with galvanized wire shows any signs of neurological symptoms, the wire is usually the culprit.

Actually, I'm sticking to my point. Galvanized wire should never be used to house parrots. If I step on a toe, I'm sorry but what is right is right and I'm stickin' to it.

[birdscomefirst]

It is a negative point. That does not mean the person doing it is a bad person. They just might not be aware of the dangers of the galvanized wire. I can't compromise my principles just to make someone happy. It's not safe for parrots and it is a ticking time bomb if parrots are kept in it.

Bill, I know what GAW wire is, I fabricate doors and cages. I also have many birds in GAW cages, some for over 20 years and they are still in perfect feather and still producing healthy babies - I have 40+ pairs and spares, All in GAW wire.

You used the fact that someone kept birds in GAW wire as a very negative point - I certainly hope you don't do that to me.

Don

[Don]

Well, I've bewen keeping birds since I was 13, I am now 62, and have never lost a bird, or had one show any clinical symptom of heavy metal poisoning. And I do have the state Vet Lab do a thourough post mortem on any bird that is lost here.

I know that zinc is a heavy metal, I also know that weathered wire or pickled wire has been safe tpo keep birds in for many decades. I know too many life long aviculturists that keep birds in GAW, and have not had any problem with it.

If you feel I am mistreating my birds, at least have the guts to say so.
Don
donsbirds.com

[Uncle]

If you feel I am mistreating my birds, at least have the guts to say so.
Don
donsbirds.com

Fight nicely boys or I will send you to your rooms.

Everything is open to debate and discussion here.

Without going into detail -- GAW wire has been used in aviaries here in the US for over 25 years without incident.

Of course - SS wire is better that GAW... but cost is a foactor.

SS cages are better that Powder Coated... but cost is a factor.

And ---- if the coice is SS wire --- there are many different grades. The cheaper grades do rust.

And ---- if the coice is SS cages --- there are many different grades. The cheaper grades do rust.

So ---- it is a matter of choice and dollar resources that is the deciding factor more than opinions within a duscussion.

Hmmmm????

[too&me]

My turn-I have discussed this with my personal avian Vet. who has over 35 years of Zoo & Breeder & pet bird practice. He says it is very rare to have a bird present with zinc toxicity symptoms or death when kept on galvanized wire. The only birds he has treated or examined came from badly weathered hardware cloth of the old variety that was degraded badly. He also mentioned that PVC is not dangerous by it's self. Again is must be degrading, the most danger is not from the pvc's themselves because they are not in an unbound form but from ingesting pieces & impacting the crop or gut.It is not a perfect world folks, we all do the best for our own flocks. Take it or leave it. :goodbad: :angwing:

[Larry, Baby and Me]

He also mentioned that PVC is not dangerous by it's self. Again is must be degrading, the most danger is not from the pvc's themselves because they are not in an unbound form but from ingesting pieces & impacting the crop or gut.

Smart vet - most don't know all that.

PVC is not a problem "by itself"... that is true. The problem comes when a bird chews and perhaps swallows any plastic product. Just about all plastics are PVC - from the hard water pipe stuff to the soft rubber ducky in Johny's bathtub.

Here is a link of some pics I took of some items made with PVC http://www.happybirdy.com/pvc_hazards.htm

The problem with these items - Baby chewed on each and everyone of them. And most likely she swallowed pieces.

PVC degrades and releases its deadly chemicals when stressed. The gizzard is the perfect tool to do the stressing. The gizzard is a thick walled muscle that constantly grinds its contents.

And oh by the way... PVC (plastic) products also contain LEAD.

I will be doing some indepth posting about the dangers of PVC in the future.

I don't know how many of you remember Doreene that posted on another board about her Umbie named Punkin. He was bleeding at the nares. We advised her to get that bird to a vet.

She didn't post again, so I emailed her asking how her Punkin was. She said he had lead poisioning. He got it by chewing a hunk out of her mini-blinds. I haven't followed up with her - so I don't know how Pumkin is doing.

If your bird is a chewer and takes bites out of ANY plastic product... Throw all plastics in the trash.

[birdscomefirst]

I know I didn't say anything about mistreating birds.

Doing something for a long time doesn't make it the safest thing to do.

Any necropsy done, unless specifically asked for will not include tests for heavy metal toxicity.
Any necropsy done on a bird that was frozen after death, will not be useful unless the cause of death is cancer. (I don't know how long after death your birds were checked and I don't know how they would be stored by you, I am just including that as informational)

Now I realize that birds die, they die of old age, they die of disease, and I understand that, but you say "and have never lost a bird" followed by "And I do have the state Vet Lab do a thourough post mortem on any bird that is lost here."

At least a little confusing.

Clinical signs of heavy metal poisoning doesn't say if a bird has heavy metal poisoning. The toxic effects have to reach a certain, technically unknown level before signs appear.

Again, I don't know your circumstance but if an older bird dies, it is probably checked for a disease or two or three, checked for tumors, and checked to see if choking or some obstruction might have been a cause of death. That's normal procedure.

Most people do not add a hundred dollars or so to the cost of a necropsy for a bird to be tested for heavy metals. You might, I don't know.

Many birds die with some level of heavy metals in their systems but it is not known.

What I do know is that Zinc is unsafe. Zinc is on Galvanized wire. Birds that live in aviaries that do show symptoms that are checked are found to have heavy metal toxicosis. To me 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

It is difficult for me to fathom that a statement like "GAW wire has been used in aviaries here in the US for over 25 years without incident." as it is imposible to know that unless every bird kept inside an aviary made with GAW was tested on a regular basis. It would also be impossible to determine, unless a necropsy including tests for heavy metals, were done on every bird in an aviary that died suddenly.

It doesnt make anyone a bad person. We are entitled to our beliefs.

I knew a lady that put Vicks Vaporub on the feathers and skin of any bird she had that was plucking. Her birds were dying and she didnt know why. When I pointed out that her practice of using Vicks was probably the reason she was losing birds since it was a petroleum based poison, she stopped losing birds.

Her logic was, she had a friend that was doing it for 40 years so it must be OK. She never aksed what effect it had on her birds.

It's a drastic example but poison is poison. It is a matter of time before it has an effect, if it does.

As I said, it may never effect a bird that doesnt climb all over the wire and ingest bits of it but that doesn't make the wire safe.

That's like saying an electrical cord is safe as long as a bird doesn't chew on it. It is the potential hazard that I am pointing out.

My point is that the Zinc is poisonous to birds. That doesnt change. Whether it poisons a particular bird or bird(s) depends on a lot of variables.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

This discussion is important and I would like to see it continue either in this thread or in a new thread in the future.

Both of you have valid points. Is one of you right and the other wrong? No - both are correct. But how can that be?

Zinc is a heavy metal and so is lead. Both are not good for birds. GAW wire contains high levels of zinc. High quality SS wire is the safest wire that money can buy. However, its cost is out of reach for all but the folks with very deep pockets.

Around the country, birds do get sick and birds do die on a regular basis. A necropsy is not performed on most birds that die. And if a necropsy is performed - it is not standard practice to test for heavy metals within the blood, major organs, muscle tissues, fatty tissues, bones, or the brain. Typically the crop, gizzard, and stomach are inspected for any foreign materials. If none are present then no further testing for heavy metals is conducted. Now - remember - I said "standard" necropsies... if the symptoms prior to death were related to heavy metal poisoning then the examinations would focus on those particular tests.

Add to the fact that very few necropsies are performed to detect heavy metals - there is no single state, national, or international database that necropsy data is entered and shared.

Let's add to the mix - how much zinc on the surface of or within an object is too much???

It depends.

It depends on several unknown factors. It depends on how much a bird is on that object. It depends on how much a bird is mouthing (beaking) that object. It depends on how much a bird is chewing that object. It depends if the bird finds a tiny weld bead and swallows it. It depends on how much zinc is "leaching" out of that object. It depends if the object is regularly cleaned.

During my ventures in the lead in cage paint mess... One of our good friends had her cage tested and the results came back with trace amounts of lead but high in zinc. She called the LSU lab and asked them to explain their note on the bottom of her report that said, 250 - 500 ppm of zinc is considered acceptable. She did not get a clear answer, so I called Dr. Jowette (the head honcho there) and I asked him to explain to me the reason for a range instead of an absolute maximum number. I also asked him how those numbers were derived.

He said to me, no one has ever fed birds paint chips laden with lead or zinc to determine at what point or level of heavy metals would cause a bird to get sick or die. He said the range given is a "calculation" of what the scientists know about avian make-up and how avians can process or eliminate heavy metal poisons. Bottom line - he told me - no one knows how much lead or zinc is too much. It is all a guess.

Add some more info to the mess... it is a recent phenomena that birds are kept in homes in the numbers that we have. AND - it is only here in the United States that we have the greatest population of companion birds than any place in the world. AND - our avian science and medicine and "good" breeding practices and avian behavior are light years ahead of the rest of the world. Sorry folks outside the U.S. of A - but thems the facts.

So - we don't know what we think we know. There is more that is not known about our feathered friends than is known. When it comes to knowledge about avians - we are in the stone ages.

So - if you two are scratching each other's eyes out over this subject... I suggest you share what you know with all of us and not battle over turf.

[Don]

"Any necropsy done, unless specifically asked for will not include tests for heavy metal toxicity. "

Sorry, but you are mistaken. Every sample I have sent in to the UC Davis Vet Labs have included a total necropsy, and has included the heavy metal testing without have to ask to have it done. There has Never been any Zinc or lead in any of the samples I had done. Many were very long tterm (age unknown) imports that there were NO causes of death reportable other than old organs, no metals, and these birds were always kept in GAW cages, from their time of capture, during quarantine, eve the USDA stations use FAW cages for decades, till they were lost.

Don

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Let me put it a different way Don, so you can see that I am not mistaken.

Here on the East coast in Florida... it is NOT common practice to check for heavy metals during the necropsy unless the symptoms prior to death indicated heavy metal toxins or the owner requests such tests.

Your UC Davis runs things by thier methods and their standards - doesn't mean the rest of the world does it their way.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Don,

And I will add... it looks like we on the east coast could learn a few things from UC Davis. I wish it were standard practice to test for heavy metals.

Question... in your neck of the woods -- who generally is the one that performs the necropsies??? Is it the local vet or do they send the bird to a lab?

[too&me]

What ever the outcome of this discussion it seems we all have a great deal to learn in the future, Veterinarians included. Lets hope that better knowlege promotes healthier bird keeping. We still have so much more scientific data to correlate & must rely on practice in our homes & in the field & sharing that information. There is also a large group of people with birds who have no idea these problems are even an issue. I also believe that more damage is done by improper feeding & handling than any other factor, so many birds in homes with Teflon, insect spray, lysol, too small a cage, no beak & nail care, violence of word & deed, really poor diets & dangerous toys. Where do we start to help those birds?:sadeyes:

[Don]

The statement was made that All heavy metal testing was done at further request - I did not see any state boundries listed in that post.... :)

""Question... in your neck of the woods -- who generally is the one that performs the necropsies??? Is it the local vet or do they send the bird to a lab?""

There are 3 avian Vets in my area, they can ususally do a visual necropsy, but I have absolutely no use for that. I already know it's dead. They will send a sample in for a total necropsy if it's requested. They normally don't offer, I think they want to keep the population uninformed. Sad.

I send the samples in myself for a Total necropsy for $75 plus the UPS overnight charge. If the Vet sends it in, add another $100, I don't need that either. I use the UC Davis Vet School Lab in Fresno CA, their specialty is Avian.

They will also do testing for out of state residents for an additional fee. If an unfortunate loss occurs, I heartily suggest they be considered for the necropsy work.

Here is the contact info :

CAHFS Fresno


UC Davis


2789 So. Orange Ave.


Fresno, Ca. 93725


559 498-7740

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Me&Too,

You said it al so aptly. If we here at HappyBirdy can help one bird live a better life... we will have taken a step in our mission.

[too&me]

Good information Don. Thank you

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Don,

You answered my question and cleared up my confusion.

The bird folks -- breeders and owners in my sphere of influence all take their dead birds to their vets.

The vet is the one that performs the necropsy and the vet is the one that decides if samples should be sent to a lab for further testing.

You use UC Davis.

Here on this side of the world we could use LSU -- LADDL. Dr. Peter Jowette the head honcho there has become a good buddy of mine.

Thank you so much for the invaluable info.

[Don]

Ok so now let me explain why I don't let the Vets do their thing before the carcass gets sent to a full lab. I do value my Vets, I have a good relationship with them and they take good care of my birds when their services are needed, thankfully that is not very often. But NO human can see, smell or in any other way sense a virus that has killed a bird. Sure they can observe some of the damage that may have been caused by the disease, but what if what they visualize is a secondary problem, or old scar tissue that is totally unrelated to the cause of death ? And there is the time constraints of getting the samples prepared so they can be properly observed and ID'd, if the tissues are compromised over time, there will not be an accurate diagnosis or identification of what was there - timing is important in these determinations.

So I say use the Vets for what they can do for the living, if they are avian knowledgeable, but send the already lost birds in to a qualified Lab in a timely manner so a proper diagnosis can be made and so perhaps save or treat any other birds that may have been exposed.

Over the years I too heard "well, I 'Think' it died of E-coli, or PDD or the liver was involved but has deteriorated and......" totaly useless information that only get a higher bill at the end of the day.

What we can learn from necropsies can save those lives we still have.

Don

[birdscomefirst]

I just got off the phone with Dr.Chin at UC Davis and they are remarkable! They DO perform in their standard necropsies , hystology, bacterial tests, they look for growths, they look for viruses, AND, they absolutely test for Lead and Zinc.

Let me first say that this is FANTASTIC! This is their standard procedure and that is unfortunately, as Larry suggests not the standard procedure at many labs.

Here's where things get fuzzy and it's not with Don's Lab or his test results or his procedures which are , in my opinion , really darn good. The problem is that not many people do what he does. Most people don't get a bird checked for a cause of death by an exceptional lab like the one at UC Davis.

Heres an example , close to home, Pepper an Amazon Parrot belonging to a friend of mine, Started showing signs of neurological problems. This person is not afraid to spend money and goes to her avian vet immediately.

Diagnosis, a stroke. Take your bird home and keep an eye on him. OH, yeah, and just in case, here's some Baytril.

Let me say that I am no vet, but Don, I know you have a ton of experience and can probably tell a vet a thing or two about birds. I can too. Based upon the symptoms that my friend told me about, I told her to get the bird tested for heavy metals. I don't know what the numbers were but lo and behold, heavy metal toxicosis. The vet basically goes, Wow, I should have thought to check. The bird was treated succesfully and is symptom free today.

It is right to say that we don't always know what we think we know. I was wrong about the tests done when Don gets his birds necropsied. In the overall scheme of things, his birds may never have been effected by the Galvanized wire and he has the proof.

I am only saying that if we know there is a potential hazard that we should be cautious about it's use.

In human terms, not every one who smokes is going to die of cancer. Not everyone who drives on the highway at 85MPH is gonna have a wreck. Not everyone who walks on ice is gonna fall and yell, "I've fallen and I can't get up".

I dont smoke, I dont speed and i don't walk on ice.

I am cautious in my daily activities based upon things that are known in the world. I am just the same way with my birds.

I know that burning PTFEs in a home can kill my birds. So I don't have non-stick cookware. I know that fatty-liver disease can be a result of a high fat diet (in some species) so I don't give my birds a lot of sunflower seeds as treats.

All I'm saying is that there is a potential hazard with Zinc on galvanized wire. I am not the only person to think that. It cant be proven that it is safe so we are left to our own experiences. That doesnt make anyone right or wrong. It doesnt make anyone a good guy or a bad guy.

It just puts more out there for bird people to examine. That's all I'm trying to do. I get tired of trying to explain that it is not being personal and that I am not trying to cause arguments.

We all do our own thing and that's fine. I apologize to Don if anything came off sounding like a personal affront although it was my intention not to come off that way, I might have.

We are on the same page in that we want what's best for our birds. We may agree or disagree on what that is so discussing it is a good thing.

Thanks,
Bill

[too&me]

Nicely said Bill, just more proof that this group of people really is here to promote the welfare of our feathered companions. We are all here to learn & share what we do know. You and Don are a formidable storehouse of experience & knowledge along with :clapping: others & sooo pleased you are all here.

[Don]

Please feel free to double check Everything I post... lol

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I thank everyone in this thread for putting in the time and effort to present us all with information that is invaluable.

Thanks.

[birdscomefirst]

Please feel free to double check Everything I post... lol

:-) I wasn't double checking you, just checking what they test for my own resources. It is great to know what they test for and that they test for so much. By the way...$75.00 in CA, $150.00 for out of state work.

Thanks Don....

Bill

[Don]

Bill, what does the state you reside in charge for a complete necropsy ?

Don

[birdscomefirst]

I'm not sure as I've not had to have one done here. I am in Western WA.

[Don]

I suggest finding out, and have the info at hand Just In Case. It's no fun trying to ready a bird for shipping and finding a Lab address and such things when you've lost a bird. And timing is important to getting the best results.
Be prepared.

[birdscomefirst]

I agree, I'll look into it and let you know what I find out.

Thanks,
Bill

[Julie]

You know this is exactly why we have this board. I am so happy to hear people communicating and educating without having to try and throw in snide comments, and remarks that leave everyone feeling left out if not worse. Thank you both Bill and Don for helping us to constantly grow in our awareness of our birds and what it truly takes to keep them healthy. You are a staple here and we are greatfull to have you.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: