Leg Bands???

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I know this is a controversial subject, so - I would like to hear from everyone what they think.

What is your position on leg bands? And why do you take that position?

I am against them for safety reasons. My Umbie can get herself into more trouble than you can imagine. I had her band removed when she was 6 months old. That thing was too big for her and it kept slipping down around her ankle. And it was made out of aluminum - and she can crack Brazil nuts with ease... so it would have not taken her much effort to crush that band.

[Birdlover]

I have seen some horrific stories about them. One was a parrot that had broken his band and it was embedded in his leg (possibly for years).

I do have a few birds that are banded, though. Ive thought about having them removed but worry about that too. My vet (avian board certified) is perfectly capable but Ive heard of legs being broken (not by him) and I still fear that.

Id rather have no bands on birds.

[Don]

I have been keeping and breeding parrots since 1986 (this time), I raised smaller birds for petshops starting in 1958 when I was 13 - some breaks in time in between . I didn't get on the boat yesterday.

I have heard the stories of how bands will kill all our birds, I have seen Vets remove bands without even asking the birds owners, I have seen my GW macaw destroy an aluminum band, no damage to the bird. I'm sure there are many factual stories about legbands and injury and even tragedy - but I have yet to see one from a properly fitting band where the real culprit wasn't a faulty cage or toy - and the bands get the blame.

I have here many imported pairs of breeder birds, All of them still have their open bands in place. I band Every baby I raise for ID purposes, now and for the future. the only real option is microchipping, and now there is a bit of evidence that the chips can be a carcinogen - for me that removes that option. I band my macaw babies with Stainless steel bands without any problems.

So - in my opinion it's because of the few instances that bands have been involved in accidents, in comparison to how many birds are banded that we do not hear about - the numbers of problems are miniscule(unless it's our bird) and the knee jerk reaction of removing the only viable method of identification is unwarranted, and irresponsible to a point. An example would be a lost and found unbanded bird, conmpared to a banded bird - ID is simple and proof poisitive, IF we live with honest folks in our areas. It would be a judicial effort to reclcaim an unbanded bird, but that is secondary to the topic - why remove the band ? If the bird has safe toys and a safe cage - what will the band cause to happen ???

I band all my babies, and will continue to do so -

DonHarris
donsbirds.com

[bonnie]

I'm planning on having Chicken's removed soon. I'm not home during the day because of school so it is a concern for me. I'm considering getting a microchip. I won't remove the band unless he has a chip tho. So my current delima is which is more harmful. Any input.

[Don]

Hi Bonnie - how old is your bird, and have you had any negative experiences with Chickens band ? If microchips are a carcinogen, how would you deal with that ?

Don

[FoxersArtist]

A few years after I got my first cockatiel, I took her in to my vet to have surgery after she had an accident with another bird. My vet quickly clipped her band off, telling me that they were dangerous. I didn't think much about it at the time. I wasn't really opposed to leg bands but I didn't really see a huge need for them either. more than anything I felt a little sorry that some birds had to carry them around on their legs, never getting a break from them, which I imagined might get annoying after 10 years or so!

It wasn't until recently that I became very opinionated about the subject. Unfortunately, we tend to ignore things until they become a problem and in the case of leg bands this typically means there has to be an accident in order to draw attention to the problem and our birds are put at great risk.

One morning not too long ago, my husband was out in our aviary, feeding and cleaning our birds. As it was, he had a routine with our bare eyed cockatoo, Benny, letting him out of his cage every morning to play while he was supervising. Benny is a fairly mechanical creature and likes to discover how things work. This particular morning Benny had figured out how to unscrew a quick-link and freed it from the toy it had been holding. He took his new treasure and clipped it around his band. Once he was on top of his cage, and before my husband could notice, Benny took the still attached quick-link and cliped himself to the bars of his cage. He was then stuck and once he realized he couldn't get away he panicked. My husband looked up and saw him jerking to free himself of the trap and quickly unhooked him. I can't imagine what would have happened, had my husband been elsewhere at the time.

Needless to say, we decided that bands are just not worth the hazard. We promptly took all of our banded birds to the vet to have them removed. For those who are worried about being able to identify your pet, there are other, safer ways to ID them. This is a hazard that goes ignored much of the time and sadly some birds have paid for this hazard with their precious lives.

Here is a link to a photo of Benny, with the link still clipped to his band.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Foxersartist/Brag%20Photos/DRing002.jpg
-Anna

[Birdlover]

I had not heard of the carcinogen possibility. Thanks for that info, Don. Cassius (Hawkhead) is not banded and I had considered chipping him. I think I'll pass on that till there is more info and that its really safe.

Ive only had one leg band problem, and it was on an import G2. He wore his import band fine for many years but always played with it. One day his leg was hugely swollen so we had no choice but to remove it. Fortunately once it was off the swelling went away and he was fine. I have four others with open bands (2 imports and 2 from surgical sexing and havent had any problems.

[too&me]

I can see both side of this issue-Harry U2 came to us unbanded, all I have to go on is that he was rehomed several times. It would be great to have a way of knowing some of his history & even his age. No birthday, no medical history, no origins. For the other side I have a Zoo background & most of our birds were banded for the purpose of tracking & identification. Occassionaly one would require a removal of the band due to accident or swelling, very occasionally. More often the problems were caused by living on cement for the waterfowl or fighting during the breeding season for Psittacines. I now volunteer at an exotic bird sanctuary-last week I had to release a Senegal that was trapped by the legband on top of a smaller cage inside the flight cage where he was bing introduced. The foot was swollen & the bird was a bit shocky but made a quick recovery. The foot was swollen when I found him but the swelling disappeared within a few hours, still wearing the band. The worst part is that the flock came to defend their new friend who they percieved was under attack by me trying to save it, I recieved a few good bites for helping! One was also attempting to bite the trapped bird due to it's odd behavior. I think this is something we must all work out for ourselves.

[Don]

What would have been the story if the quick link had been properly tightened so the bird would not be able to open it........?

Don

[Birdlover]

I think this is a great option for those mechanically inclined birds.

Bird-Proof Toy Hanger (http://www.greyfeathertoys.com/cgi-bin/quikstore.cgi?store=&search=yes&detail=yes&product=551&category=all&keywords=hanger&hits_seen=&page=search.html&and=&affiliate_id=)

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I'm planning on having Chicken's removed soon. I'm not home during the day because of school so it is a concern for me. I'm considering getting a microchip. I won't remove the band unless he has a chip tho. So my current delima is which is more harmful. Any input.

The report that microchips cause turmors came out about a month ago. I think there have been very few cases - but nonetheless it has happened. I discussed this with my vet - she said she will wait for the AVA (American Vet Assoc) to issue their findings before taking a stance against chipping. She is for chipping - but she has not encouraged me nor discouraged me to chip Baby.

I don't have time right now to look up the article or find recent info on the topic... so it would be helpful if one of you would do a google on

microchip tumor

and then post your findings here for all to learn from.

Thanks

[Don]

So if it is 1 in 100,000 animals that get a cancer from being micro-chipped, is that an acceptable incidence to use that as a replacement for banding ?

How many in a million birds have bands been a problem, or how many in the past 25 years, maybe a handfull... ?

Do we consider removing bands so we don't have to worry about the improper cages we put them into and the dangerous toys we lavish on our birds ?

It seems to me that 99.5% of the time it's things other than the bands that are the problem - if your bird gets his foot hung up in a cheap piece of crap cage, and you remove the band - it's still living in a POC cage.. where is the real responsibility ?

Just being the 'banding advocate', and seeing this side of the topic - I certainly cringe and ache every time a bird is injured.

Don

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Just being the 'banding advocate', and seeing this side of the topic - I certainly cringe and ache every time a bird is injured.
Don

Don - the very reason I said in my first post - "this is a controversial subject" - because it is.

We all have our reasons and ways to protect our birds. Most bird owners do their very best... but sometimes our best is not good enough.

I have a personal experience that taints my decision with bands. When I was 19 and new on the job - we were forbidden to wear jewlery of any kind because of saftey. We worked with high amperage circuits. But one of my co-workers was recently married and he proudly wore his wedding ring inspite of the rules.

He was standing on a ladder while working on an overhead rack. He slipped and grabbed for the overhead strucure to break his fall. He fell to the floor and his ring remained on the overhead rack - with his finger in it.

I do not wear jewlery of any kind to this very day - no watch - no ring - no necklace - nothing.

So - no rings for me and no bands for my birds.

I do think microchipping is a good alternative for positive identification inspite of the few cases of tumors.

Oh by the way... I forgot to set up HB to catch the word "crap". But since it is you... no problem my friend. ;)

[michelle]

Sigh... all three of my birds are chipped.

I'm just going to hope it doesn't cause problems. If I'd known of the possible problems before I had it done, I probably would have held off on doing it.

I have a concern about bands as I've heard of injuries with them. My maxi pi, Django, is the only one who still has a band. His seems to be an okay size (not too big, like my sennie's was, or too small, as my blue head pi's was), but still, who knows if it could still be an issue! (Yup - he as a band and a chip... double coverage. :D)

[Don]

The issue of bands being the correct size for the species is more important than any other issue about the bands, proper bands don't open as many opportunities to involve problems. Hope no on has any, ever.

Don

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Hi Don,

How are you doing? I am back and forth on the issue. Linus has an open importation band. I am hesitant to remove it, and this might be silly, but it speaks to his history which I know so little about. His age says that he came here after the importation ban. Does this mean he was smuggled in? I don't know, but if I die and he winds up in a rescue I want someone to be able to put 2+2 together regarding some of his "issues". He has SERIOUS aggression towards brooms. I saw a documentary where illegally imported birds were hoarded around and violently "controlled" with brooms. This might be a leap, and even irrelevant. His broom thing might be a result of any number of things, but it doesn't seem wise to me to eliminate anything that could add insight where there is no clue. JMO.

Patty

[Don]

Many breeders and some Vets use the open style bands that we relate to as quarantine bands, they are made by DL products on SoCal, anyone can buy them. So an open band doesn't necessarily mean that - if your bird was caught in smuggling the code on the band would probably have USDA or USFWS stamped on it and 3 or 4 numbers - magnifying glass time.

Some birds just dislike brooms, other hate towels, nets - or whatever. Certainly doesn't mean there was any mistreatment, but it happens.

Don

[Don]

Well, sorry for the bad word, it was the best I could do and still get the impression across, I had thought of a couple others :)

It was used as a discriptive adjective. But I guess the point was made as was yours...

- and I'll bet dollars to donuts there are more injuries to birds from junk cages and improper toys than could ever be attributed to banding.

Don

[Birdlover]

For anyone interested, here is more info on the import bands.

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/vs/ncie/bird-leg-bands.html

The one pictured is from a G2 that came through a CA quarantine station.

[iti hoa's mom]

For those with microchips, how long is the chip guarnateed for? I know mine for the dogs and it will outlast their life expectancy. Birds by far live longer and will the chip continue for that length or have to be replaced. Chips in dogs have improved over the years. Initially the found some migrating. Now they are made in a way that the tissue surrounds the chip and migration is not a problem.

Why not do a search and see what you can find out. Information is there but not a lot. What does the package insert say? Food for thought

Peggy

[FoxersArtist]

Don,
You are very right about tightening quick links. Sometimes I fail to see the more obvious solution (or prevention) of things, but we should always be willing to learn and do our best. I had honestly never thought about tightening the links with a pliars until after we had everyone's bands clipped and you made the suggestion about tightening on MT. thanks for your wisdom! I'm still against bands though as a number of things could happen even if I was being more cautious. Just my opinion. :)
-Anna

[birdie]

I had Stella's leg band removed as it slid down below her ankle and could not be put back up. She would perch on it and I was afraid it would do damage to her foot. Hers seemed a bit large. Her vet felt it would be best to remove it.
Here's a link to a pic of her...

http://becsnet.net/petphotos/albums/userpics/Copy_of_Picture_016.jpg

Brenda

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Someone from a, umm, former forum had told me the band indicated Linus came through Cal-Poly, I think it was. Lot #119. I'm going to look it up again. However, that is as far as my search got.

Patty

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

This is what Linus's band looks like, the lettering is even the same. His however is not at all that shiny anymore.

Patty

[Diane, Clouds assignment]

Brenda, After seeing your picture of Stella's leg band, I panicked. That's the same place Clouds' is. He is the first bird I ever saw banded, so I thought that is where it belonged. Cloud has a Avian vet appt next week and I will certainly ask about the band position.

Don, what are your thoughts.

Diane

[Don]

Stellas band appears to be in the correct place - above the foot and below the leg joint.

Don

[Diane, Clouds assignment]

Thanks, Don, I guess I should get a book on avian anatomy.

[Evelyn]

I know this is a controversial subject, so - I would like to hear from everyone what they think.

What is your position on leg bands? And why do you take that position?

I am against them for safety reasons. My Umbie can get herself into more trouble than you can imagine. I had her band removed when she was 6 months old. That thing was too big for her and it kept slipping down around her ankle. And it was made out of aluminum - and she can crack Brazil nuts with ease... so it would have not taken her much effort to crush that band.


Larry -

I have mixed feelings about bands. On the one hand, it is a method of identification should your bird become separated from you. Also, I remember seeing a web site some time back where bands and their ID initials/numbers were listed, so if you don't know anything about the bird, there's a chance of finding out.

I took my LSC to the vet about 3 months ago, and he looked at her band and said, "Hmmmm, "A Minnesota bird." I was so surprised that she ended up in Virginia, I didn't think to ask him how he knew.

OTOH, some of the horror stories I've heard scare me to death. I have only had bands removed when they were causing a problem. A U2's band got too small (or he got too big for the band), and the band my baby CAG was wearing a callous on his leg.

I asked my vet about microchipping, and he said he didn't recommend it--that it was too much trauma for the bird. This was my little LSC; maybe there is less concern for larger birds??

Evelyn

[Evelyn]

One morning not too long ago, my husband was out in our aviary, feeding and cleaning our birds. As it was, he had a routine with our bare eyed cockatoo, Benny, letting him out of his cage every morning to play while he was supervising. Benny is a fairly mechanical creature and likes to discover how things work. This particular morning Benny had figured out how to unscrew a quick-link and freed it from the toy it had been holding. He took his new treasure and clipped it around his band. Once he was on top of his cage, and before my husband could notice, Benny took the still attached quick-link and cliped himself to the bars of his cage. He was then stuck and once he realized he couldn't get away he panicked. My husband looked up and saw him jerking to free himself of the trap and quickly unhooked him. I can't imagine what would have happened, had my husband been elsewhere at the time.

Needless to say, we decided that bands are just not worth the hazard. We promptly took all of our banded birds to the vet to have them removed. For those who are worried about being able to identify your pet, there are other, safer ways to ID them. This is a hazard that goes ignored much of the time and sadly some birds have paid for this hazard with their precious lives.


Anna -

I know it was scary for you and dangerous for him, but isn't Benny just the smartest bird!

What other, safer ways can you use for ID, other than microchipping?

Evelyn

Evelyn

Here is a link to a photo of Benny, with the link still clipped to his band.
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Foxersartist/Brag%20Photos/DRing002.jpg
-Anna[/quote]

[too&me]

Some one mentioned migration of the micro chip-yes that can happen -I have worked in Veterinary clinics & have seen well placed chips end up down a rear leg at the hock on a Golden retriever when it was inserted just at the top of the front shoulder. This should not make a great deal of difference in most cases as it was still findable & responded to the seeking scan. Now as far as a bird there is much less territory for it to get lost in, as long as it remains under the skin it should respond to a once over with a scanner.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I think someone mentioned about the lifespan of a parrot compared to other animals. That was a good point.

Parrots can live well beyond 60 years - so what is the lifespan of a microchip? And what effects will it cause in years to come?

I don't know those answers, and I don't think anyone in the microchip business will know until 60 years from now.

I still firmly believe that prevention is the best method. And yes - clipped birds can fly.

[iti hoa's mom]

A couple of sites I found on microchips listed a gurantee of 25 years for microchips.

ME :)

[bonnie]

Hi Bonnie - how old is your bird, and have you had any negative experiences with Chickens band ? If microchips are a carcinogen, how would you deal with that ?

Don

I'm sorry it's taken so long to reply!
He's 8 and we have not had problems, but we have not had him long. My biggest concern is the amount of time he spends in his cage. I have a part time job and am a full time student. When I am home he is never in the cage, but when I'm gone, sometimes 8 to 10 hrs a day I'm worried about what may happen. I am just thinking that it's one less thing to worry about.

As far as the chip, that is something I am still SERIOUSLY debating. I have heard very good and very bad things about them. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I were the one to cause him pain or the grief of complications. That is why nothing has been done so far.