Questions/input on a mutilator.... not for the weak

[Julie]

My Carl (http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/julie727/Birds/april302008007.jpg), for those of you that are not familiar with me is a mutilator. He had spent aprox 2 1/2 weeks in a cone recently. This picture was taken last night; he had been out for 3 days.

During the time he was in the cone he managed to loose about 30g or 10% of his normal body weight. He still had the sensitive pink skin where his wound had been, but we knew he had to get out getting some weight back on.

Tonight I had to put him back into the cone. Jill also has a mutilator named Fred, and I had sent her an e-mail asking questions and curious to see a picture of him. She suggested I start a thread so we could try to reach out to others. I was asking because it seems to be that the progression of the "mutilation" starts with the chest and quite often then moves to the feet. Birds have been known to take off their own toes and feet.

Last night I noticed a small dry patch on Carl’s ankle. Not thinking too much of it since he is molting pretty well right now. Then he started messing with it like it was one of his chest wounds. When he is in one of the moods they get compulsive about it. My too is a very quiet bird. He sits there messing around with an open wound, and then will pick up his head, shake no, and quite often pick up his leg and clench his foot because he is in pain. NO screaming, just a manic behavior.

Carl was abandoned at a pet store at the age of 6 during a nasty divorce with his original owners. He was in a one bird home. He after this dug into his chest so badly that he had to be surgically closed. I do not have pictures of him like this, and I do not know any more history on him other than this. I have had him for 3 years now, and he has been doing this mutilation with me since last March.

So I'm in the boat now, while he is in the cone, that I will have to hand feed him his regular foods because he throws this pity party to try and make me feel guilty and not eat. I'm taking it day by day, but I'm starting to worry that my current tactic is not working, and he is getting worse.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Hey Julie,

My heart aches for Carl and you. We feel so helpless.

I know that plucking and self mutilation are somewhat different but somewhat similar. I have let Baby's flight feathers grow out to prepare her for some indoor exercise. I know a good exercise regime is the best medicine for humans - so I am thinking it might help Baby with her plucking and sitting around in her cage.

What do you think --- maybe exercise might help???

[Julie]

He has a very tiny wing trim that we gave him last fall. A lot of his flights are full, probably 50% of them. When he is not in the cone he does fly, and we have been trying to make a point to get them doing at least a couple rounds in the large room every night. He will need to be in his cone at least till the current wound heals up more.

I do think he needs to get more exercise. Every time he is out and I go to pick him up all he EVER wants to do with me is cuddle. I will grab his basket of foot toys and he will ignore them and run to me for cuddles. He will play fetch with me while he is on his cage and throw the ball. He is quite proud of himself when he launches it really far. He will definately play with Pappa, but he is not always home early like I am.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Julie - you are describing Baby to a T.

It seems like she "grew" into this demanding cuddle and touching thing. It was not always that way with her but it has become so.

I will keep you posted on our exercise programs.

[Julie]

If you take a step back and try to look at it from an outsiders view point I can totally understand his desire for cuddles. He feels safe, secure, loved, and that he belongs. Nothing in thier world is wrong during cuddle times.

So why is it that they do not feel safe, secure, loved, and I might even go as far as saying happy when we are not there to "hold" thier hand? Is he so uncomfortable with his life as a caged pet in my house that I am torturing him into this? (I say caged and pet more as to try and get a point across)

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Julie - you and I are on the same page with this. There have been many times that I have appologized to Baby - saying I am so sorry that she had the msfortune to be born into the world of humans.

Too often she seems sad. Her high-points in her life is the touch - the scritch - the cuddle. It is what she lives for.

I do my best to limit this - but she is so demanding of it. Like I said... when she was a youngster she played and found life a bowl of cherries... I called it the Too Exuberance... she was full of herself... and life was fun. But being locked behind steel bars just ain't fun. She deserves to be with her own kind - playing in the wild. That is not possible - so her lot in life is with humans... so - so sad.

[MaryG1959]

Julie,

I had a mutilator, I feel for you---in a major way. It is a heart wrenching experience.

I am going to go from the beginning since I don't know you, your bird or anything about you. Please dont take offense if you'e already been down this path.


vet visit with blood tests
remove all possibly allergens, wheat, soy, peanuts
if you use a pellet, consider switching to roudybush rice diet
lots of shreddable toys
when you aren't there turn on the television
maybe try some foraging toys.
Try your hardest to show no emotion when you find her in the midst of ripping into herself......After having said the above, I know that things can and often do still continue.

My Lucy passed away this past september. I owned her 3 years and she came from a horrible past life of starvation, malnutrtion etc.

She would literally dig giant holes in herself. Every morning I'd come down the stairs and round the corner where her cage was with my heart in my stomach.....often there was blood everywhere, often I'd have to call work so I could take her into the vets office. Every time it was a different location, at the place where the wing joins the body, leg, back etc......

I made my own collar (vet measured and instructed) out of foam pipe insulation and would line w/a cotten t-shirt. I'd then wrap the whole thing w/vet wrap.

She got worse and worse over time and it became a daily ritual of checking her wounds, cleaning her wounds, dressing her wounds, making new collars, taking off collars....

I don't wish this on anyone, please feel free to email me anytime.

[iti hoa's mom]

Julie - you and I are on the same page with this. There have been many times that I have appologized to Baby - saying I am so sorry that she had the msfortune to be born into the world of humans.

Too often she seems sad. Her high-points in her life is the touch - the scritch - the cuddle. It is what she lives for.

I do my best to limit this - but she is so demanding of it. Like I said... when she was a youngster she played and found life a bowl of cherries... I called it the Too Exuberance... she was full of herself... and life was fun. But being locked behind steel bars just ain't fun. She deserves to be with her own kind - playing in the wild. That is not possible - so her lot in life is with humans... so - so sad.

You can look at it as you describe. Or you can look at her in the wild, having to hunt for food, be aware of predators and different diseases. then there may be the free handout of food from people which is not healthy. Getting caught in wiring that was not seen. She could eat farmers crops which have pestacide added. She could get caught from the wild and made a pet. She might not find a mate and still be alone sitting. there are a whole lot of other scenarios which have not been mentioned. We don't know to what age they live in the wild. They may also pluck in the wild and those birds would not survive as others would see to their demise.

TC, goffin, is a plucker. He is also flighted and leaves just enough feathers so he can fly some. He is not caged and lives on playstands. He is exhuberant. Although he likes nothing better than to be cuddled he also plays and does show joy for life. I do need to keep him in toys and have creative foraging activities. HE has adding machine tape in his cage and on a playstand which he plays with everyday. Although not caged, he does have his own cage for when I am out of town. I just put a new cage together for one of the other birds. The bird has not been placed in it yet. I have started putting things in the cage. Guess what...TC opened the latch from the outside (yes, he is the one that can break out of anything) and he climbed inside. He does seek out cages to take naps in or to sleep at night sometimes...his choice.

Do not beat yourself up, Baby may not have had a better life in the wild and continue to provide activities for her. You may need to teach her. How does she do with bathing. Have you moved on to misting her or taking her into the shower which is a good way for activity.

You have switched her diet. Rather than give her treat in an easy to access place make her work a bit for the treat.

One thing I do know...she is loved!

[MaryG1959]

a mutilating bird with an open wound should not be placed in the shower. In my humble opinion, it will only make it worse. You have to heal the wound, entirely (even scabs falling off) before removing the collar and bathing.

If you see your vet they can provide you with a much better collar than the cone shaped one you are using.....they are miserable in the elizabethans.....I know my poor Lucy was.

Let me know if I can help.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Yes - Peggy... Baby is loved and she is well aware of that.

[too&me]

Fred is an Elanorea who mutilates, it seems from what I have read & from Julies experience that the mutilators are some of the kindest gentelest birds, I have no idea why this is. Fred had lived on a corn only diet for an unknown number of years before his last owner Vickie had his chest surgically closed & upgraded his diet to a healthier level. He has been rehomed more than twice but we don't know how many times or what he has been through. He is getting physically stronger now but only made it 4 days with out a collar before he began the dig into his chest again. Even in the collar he can pull blood feathers off the back of his wings in a small area. Vet has me misting him at least once a day alternating between plain water & Aloe vera juice. He does look better heals quickly but still driven to mutilate himself. The behavior seems to be out of his control.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I alternate with the spraying as well. You might consider spraying with distilled water instead of tap water.

[Julie]

I am going to go from the beginning since I don't know you, your bird or anything about you. Please dont take offense if you'e already been down this path.

vet visit with blood tests
remove all possibly allergens, wheat, soy, peanuts
if you use a pellet, consider switching to roudybush rice diet
lots of shreddable toys
when you aren't there turn on the television
maybe try some foraging toys.
Try your hardest to show no emotion when you find her in the midst of ripping into herself......After having said the above, I know that things can and often do still continue.

I made my own collar (vet measured and instructed) out of foam pipe insulation and would line w/a cotten t-shirt. I'd then wrap the whole thing w/vet wrap.

She got worse and worse over time and it became a daily ritual of checking her wounds, cleaning her wounds, dressing her wounds, making new collars, taking off collars....

My vet has the oppinion that the collars, like th one in your photo, are harmful to the bird's neck alignment. Although I believe she is speaking of the hard plastic kind, and not the foam insulation that you are talking about. That actually sounds like a wonderful compromise.

He has been through the tests, and is on a seed diet. We put a small amount of pellets into his seed mixture, but I have never seen him eat one. He does not like peanuts, almonds, walnuts, pine nuts, but loves pistacioes. Getting him to play is like pulling teeth. He likes the bead toys like the one you see in the back ground of his picture above, but he will not play with me other than fetch. In fact most of the time when he is not in his cone he will sit on the door to his cage and watch what is going on. If we leave the room, he goes back into his cage by himself.

He seems to go in spurts with the mutilation. Since we know the behavior and what to look for in him we curb most of it by putting him in the e-collar till he heals. No showers while he has a wound, may be a little misting. But like I said he is not living life, and I feel guilty putting that cone on him while he heals.

Thank you for the offer to e-mail and such, I will probably take you up on that! Jill and I do e-mail back and forth about the boys often.

[MaryG1959]

Getting him to eat better is a big challenge. I sneak veggies into the diet by purchasing "organic baby food" (check the label to make sure no extra vitamins etc were added). Add two jars a veggie and a fruit to birdie bread.....a little flax seed oil would be helpful as well. Call Roudybush and ask them for a sample of the Rice Diet. My Lucy would ONLY eat Roudybush Rice, she loved it, they are light and crunchy (or so she told me....:sadeyes:).

Another thing is grind up some Kale, Brocolli or dandellion in the food processor and sneak it into the birdie bread.....

The collar is not harmful...it is foam pipe insulation and is soft (but firm) by nature, wrapped in cotton or a piece of a cotton t-shirt and then completely wrapped in vet wrap....it is much nicer than a hard collar...especially the cone collars.

I'm sorry to see any bird or any human who loves a bird go through this. It is truly heart wrenching and an experience I hope I never have to deal w/again first hand.

Many praises to anyone willing to go the distance w/this type of bird.

Hugs,

Mary

[too&me]

Larry our house came with a RO reverse osmosis system, a same result as distilled.

[bonnie]

I'm so sorry you guys. I want to cry just reading this. I don't know what I would do if Chicken plucked/self mutilated. How terrible.

[MaryG1959]

The comment was made that these birds are always "EXTRA SWEET" it is true. Lucy was so sensitive---I just think she couldn't get past her former life of misery....some birds take that kind of treatment and get mean or aggressive---I think that would be favored. lucy took it and turned it "inward upon herself".

Broke my heart and still does....she will always be special and the one I wished i could've done more for.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I wonder if Post Traumatic Stress syndrom is in play here???

[MaryG1959]

Larry as my vet said to me---

"If I had the cure for this, I'd be sitting on the beach having a drink w/a little umbrella in it rather than taking late night vet appts............."

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Larry as my vet said to me---

"If I had the cure for this, I'd be sitting on the beach having a drink w/a little umbrella in it rather than taking late night vet appts............."

Your vet said it all so well. Research has been done in this area for the past 40 years... mostly in the poultry industry. Many things are "thought" to cause it - but nothing conclusive.

[KoriConure]

I freely admit to not knowing much about birds, so please don't get angry if I say something wrong here.
I can totally understand not wanting to use drugs in this case but what about something homeopathic?

Also, and this is probably a really dumb idea but I'm not afraid to look stupid so here goes:
Is there a way to make a "shirt" or something to put on the bird that can have shredders or even just strips of toilet paper on it so when the bird goes to destroy feathers it would destroy that instead? My thought is that maybe it would eventually teach them to shred other things and that could be translated into playing with/destroying actual toys hung in the cage. Of course it would have to be something that does not freak the bird out which is easier said than done, I know!
Is there some kind of physical sensation driving them to mutilate, or it is strictly psychological? Or both? Or we just don't know?
As far as the diet goes, I know fresh foods, etc is ideal but my conure won't eat much in the way of fresh. I make my birdie breads with various flours (quinoa, buckwheat, brown rice, millet, etc) and add fruits and veggies. I usually do one that is a fruit based and one that is veggie based and have found this works well to get a variety of foods into him.

I think self mutilation is so sad. It is found in so many types of animals and I think it is one of the hardest things to treat/fix. I wish I had some magic answer!!
HUGS to anyone who is dealing with it!

[too&me]

We use Homeopathic remedies for the family especially for bruising and simple sore throats ect. but have yet to try with Fred. First going through the Vets instructions and working on diet and activity levels. It takes a great deal of research prior to deciding which remedy is correct and the behavior seems to be an obsessive one for Fred & out of his control.

[Julie]

I have tried a "heavy duty" vest. It came with a preening scarf on it, and Carl had that preening piece off in 10 minute. The vest, which was definately built for duration was totally ripped appart within 3 days and no longer useable. This heavy duty vest was $75.00.

We have also tried the cotton type t-shirts or body socks, and the problem with these is that he will dig harder into the suit to try and get around it. There is also the chance of them getting caught up/hung somewhere on the cage with one of these on. Even with the heavy duty models the end result is that he diggs in even deeper till the suit is torn up and exposes the affected area.

As far as homeopathic, I have tried the chamomile tea, and he seems to like it, but it is difficult to get him to drink it. The only way I have found that I can get him to drink it is if I make myself a cup and he shares out of my mug, which is not the safest due to - gram rods, right Dot?

[too&me]

You have to fake drinking it with lip smacking ect. good acting practice. Chamomile tea is a herbal not a Homeopathic.

[Evelyn]

I don't know if this is feasible, but what about finding something that tastes terrible to a bird (but is not harmful if ingested). Might that not discourage all but the most determined pluckers/mutilators?

I've been very fortunate in that all of my birds have been happy, non-pluckers. A little female LSC had her chest plucked bare when she came to me, but everything has grown back out except some feathers on her legs, which I guess won't ever come back.

Betty came from a very stressful household--five fairly young kids who were very noisy. She has been with me about 3 years now, and she is no longer timid. She used to shake when anybody approached her cage; now she will jump out onto my hand. Like somebody else said, though, she wants to be cuddled (which made my husband, who is not a bird person, fall in love with her); but she is also quite active now.

Evelyn

Evelyn

[Julie]

Evelyn,

They do make a "bitter" spray for birds that is supposed to address the plucking issues. I can not remember, but there are several reasons why it was not advised to use it. May be Larry can remember, its Monday and my brain is not in gear yet.

[Evelyn]

Evelyn,

They do make a "bitter" spray for birds that is supposed to address the plucking issues. I can not remember, but there are several reasons why it was not advised to use it. May be Larry can remember, its Monday and my brain is not in gear yet.

That just goes to prove the old adage: If it's too good to be true, it isn't true.

Larry????

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Evelyn,

They do make a "bitter" spray for birds that is supposed to address the plucking issues. I can not remember, but there are several reasons why it was not advised to use it. May be Larry can remember, its Monday and my brain is not in gear yet.

I don't approve of it mainly because it only deters the behavior but doesn't address the problems behind it. HOWEVER, Linus is an over-preener, not a card carrying plucker, but there have been two times that he has worked himself over to where you could see his dark skin through the feathers on his chest. One of those times is now. The first time, I used the bitters and the feathers filled back in. I'm trying it again now - we'll see. I can't say for sure whether using the bitters was responsible or not.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

You folks know my motto --- when in doubt - don't.

Bitter tasting things... birds have different taste sensors than we do. In fact they prefer bitter taste over non-bitter.

Homeopathic - nothing has been studied or researched or proven with homeopathic.

Some have even recommended and "tried" Noni Juice. Don't do it! The folks at Noni Juice are one step ahead of the law. It's a scam!

Please do not put anything on your bird's feathers that you don't want them to ingest. And never put anything in their water except water and nothing in their food except food.

There are too many things that are not known about avian medicine for us to be experimenting with our birds.

Oh - I almost forgot --- Pluck No More and all the other snake oils on the market are dangerous. Those products are drugs designed to put your bird in a stupor. I have done my research on these.

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

You folks know my motto --- when in doubt - don't.

Bitter tasting things... birds have different taste sensors than we do. In fact they prefer bitter taste over non-bitter.

Homeopathic - nothing has been studied or researched or proven with homeopathic.

Some have even recommended and "tried" Noni Juice. Don't do it! The folks at Noni Juice are one step ahead of the law. It's a scam!

Please do not put anything on your bird's feathers that you don't want them to ingest. And never put anything in their water except water and nothing in their food except food.

There are too many things that are not known about avian medicine for us to be experimenting with our birds.

Oh - I almost forgot --- Pluck No More and all the other snake oils on the market are dangerous. Those products are drugs designed to put your bird in a stupor. I have done my research on these.


I know Larry, and I agree with you, but I just don't want a habit to begin.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I know Larry, and I agree with you, but I just don't want a habit to begin.

I know dear. Sometimes it gets to the point if a Witch Doctor would work - we would try it, because we feel so helpless.

We just got to do what we think is best - and if that doesn't work then keep on trying.

[Julie]

Ok, I went to the vet yesterday with Carl.... He has come down with a cold (I think) and I wanted to get him checked out for that. Some icky stuff comming out of his nostrils.... Waiting on lab's to confirm if its just a cold or possibly more... Will go into the more later if it is the case.

While I was there, they tried to give me red palm oil as a therapy to help calm him down. I told them no thank you. I did get some antibiotics and nasal drops. The most exciting thinig is I got him into one of the bubble cones. He actually played and cuddled with me with it on!!!! OMG I can not tell you all how thrilled I am that he was acting more like his normal self. I do not know if this is a long term solution because he could still pick on himslef if he really wanted to in it. Also it I'm sure is not comfortable. The vet said she would NOT give me one made out of foam, because they have had to go in after foam pieces in birds bellies too often now. This is a start, and we are watching him very closely.

I also brought home another product (http://www.avequip.co.uk/avixsootherplusointmentnew.html) called HEALx (http://vetdek.com/PressReleases/VET/2007/soother_plus_flier1.pdf). It is about the thickness of a gel. We put it on his chest owie and his feet last night. This morning his feet had NO pealing spots on them, and they were soft and smooth. I was astonished! They said to apply it 1x daily, but I'm not too sure. It is aloe based, but also has some fatty acids. The pain releaver might be good for daily use until he is heled, I'm just concerned about the other ingredients. I just wanted to share this with everyone and let them give an oppinion or know that it also comes in a spray version.

You know I'm not trying to sell this here, just trying to find some good oppinions on its use and frequency from others. This is made by the "Harrison" food producer. I will keep you all updated on Carls progress. I was a little rushed for time this morning, and did not get a chance to check his chest out before I left this AM.

[birdscomefirst]

Larry said it best as far as the odd remedies that don't work anyway.

The aloe juice and water is the best remedy as the aloe has been studied and is known to be harmless if ingested. It contains a natural anesthetic that helps the skin feel good and keeps it moist.

If anyone in the house smokes, (I didnt see if that was mentioned) take it outside. many birds are terribly allergic to the nicotine that ends up in the air and that settles out.

If you've ever been a house with a smoker, even the curtains turn yellow. The windows film over with residue too. That is horrible on a birds skin.

Many times, plucking starts for one reason and then becomes a habit. It's kinda like a kid that chews on his fingernails. It's a tough habit to break.

I am not sure if this was mentioned, but the least amount of "drama" involved if you see your bird plucking, the better. Don't wince, don't say anything like "Aw, baby, don't do that"...Do nothing but "matter of factly" deal with the issue in a quiet, unexcited, non-dramatical way. (Again, some of this may have been talked about)

Some birds will even take to plucking just to get you to walk over. We sometimes create attention that the bird will ultimately crave by our own reaction to the plucking.

One of the keys to helping a plucker or a mutilator is to see what happens just seconds before the behavior starts.

This is just an example but some birds react to things like this.

Commercials on TV are geared to be louder than the show you are watching. The sudden loudness if a bird can hear the TV sometimes gets them excited. The excitement can be turned into stress and the stress will result in plucking.

In this example, if you wait until the plucking happens, you are too late to do anything about it. If you discover that the TV getting louder precipitates the plucking then you can work on that to alleviate the problem behavior.

In other words, you need to redirect a problem behavior by discovering what triggers it.

It is not the easiest thing to do.

Thanks,
Bill





You folks know my motto --- when in doubt - don't.

Bitter tasting things... birds have different taste sensors than we do. In fact they prefer bitter taste over non-bitter.

Homeopathic - nothing has been studied or researched or proven with homeopathic.

Some have even recommended and "tried" Noni Juice. Don't do it! The folks at Noni Juice are one step ahead of the law. It's a scam!

Please do not put anything on your bird's feathers that you don't want them to ingest. And never put anything in their water except water and nothing in their food except food.

There are too many things that are not known about avian medicine for us to be experimenting with our birds.

Oh - I almost forgot --- Pluck No More and all the other snake oils on the market are dangerous. Those products are drugs designed to put your bird in a stupor. I have done my research on these.

[Julie]

Bill,

Thank you for re-visiting some of these items for me! No smokers in the house, but the birds are in the kitchen/living room, where the tv is. We do not leave it on during the day for them (a plasma only has some many hours in its life span) so we do leave the radio on low.

We brought Carl home after he had been in a parrot store for aprox 6 months. He was 6 years old when we brought him home. I beleve that he must have gone through some sort of stress or something in his previous home to start this, because it truly seems like a compulsive thing that he could not stop even if he wanted to.

Thank you all for your help and support!

[too&me]

Fred also is compulsive- just before he mutilates he becomes trance like-often staring at his feet first. I have seen other people with mutilators say the same thing.

[Julie]

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Carl is out of the bubble collar and back in the e-cone.

To much access to his chest in the bubble collar, so poor guy will be horizantally bound till it heals.

[birdscomefirst]

Hi,

Me &Too...a question, I'm curious as to what happens if you see Fred in that trance like mode and try to distract him at that point. Does he still go after himself if you redirect him at that point?

Thanks,
Bill

[Julie]

Bill,

Both Fred and Carl stare at thier feet just prior to going into a picking state.

It is nearly impossible to distract Carl. I have tried to play ball, give him a food treat, pick him up for attention, talk to him, put on music, anything I could think of. All result in a momentary distraction to step up/look at me/etc, and then will continue on with the staring or picking.

Carl also has a specific head roll that he will do, we call it the wind up. He will even some times have a sound that he makes during the wind up, similar to a humans question (hugh?) sound.

[too&me]

Same with Fred, any distraction is fleeting not able to disengage that behavior with anything momentary. I have tried interrupting him with step ups, taking him outside, just quiet talking and head scratches or fresh foods moving to the bird tree in the front hallway. On the good side he had a weak grip and flew just like a rock one month a go when he arrived and now his grip is much stronger and he can fly at low altitudes for about 15 Ft. he is not a really active bird, Harry is much more busy. I have just this week moved their cages to the same room adjacent to each other so they can watch and entertain each other during the day. Hopefully get used to each other as well.