Forcing your parrot to comply

[birdie]

Just curious…
When teaching our bird{s} to step up, or any desired behavior, we are to know that we should not force them to do as we wish them to but to give them a choice to learn and be taught. Which brings me to my questions~ When your bird is getting into something dangerous to their well being we must then force them to do what we wish by actually making them step up against their will. How many birds bite? How many just go with the flow anyway? Are we teaching them that we are bullies? Will these actions cause them to be leery of us? Or reluctant? How do your birds react to being plucked away from trouble? How do you go about it?


When any of my birds are into something they shouldn’t be I put my hand to their belly and say “step up” in a firm voice, if they don’t comply I then put my finger under their feet and lift up forcing them to comply. If I can’t get under their feet, around the body goes my hand and I just pick them up. I start talking to them and act as if noting was done wrong and go about whatever we were doing. They don’t seem to be upset with me, and most of the time don’t return to the activity… right away anyway.

[Jamieleigh]

Most refer to forcing the bird (or any animal for that matter) to do something as "flooding" which is actually a known training technique. It's looked more down upon now, based off of what people have learned since then but it's still a training technique that works for some animals though definitely not all. I don't think people realize how often flooding is used in just every day occurances with their animals.

When my birds get into something they aren't supposed to, such as Cressi (http://flickr.com/photos/davewomach/2439452756/) as of late... she is curious about everything! I will just take away whatever it is she shouldn't have and replace it with something she can have. This way it's not "You can't do that" it's "You can do that but only with this".

[Julie]

I guess it depends on the bird. Carl (BE2) if in his cage will NOT step up for me quite often, but any time out of his cage will step up without any major issues.

We were in danger once, at my fathers house a friend of mine let Carl out of his travel cage while I was in the other room, and did not watch the dog and let him in also. So the stupid dog got a tail feather and sent Carl crawling up my friends arm, up her face, and flew down the hall. By the time I got down there with all the comotion, I caught the dog, handed it to her and scooped up Carl under the belly. Not because he would not step up, but I wanted to get to him as fast as possible.

Point being with the story, if the birds are truly in an immediate threat I will tell them to step up, but I will scoop them up from under the belly. The CAG would probably give me a bite, but not good enough to break the skin. Carl would probably be startled and not know why I picked him up like that.....

[FoxersArtist]

I understand that some may or may not agree with my opinions about this, but nevertheless I will share them!

I disagree that we should never force a bird to do something that it does not want to do BUT I strongly feel that it depends on the specific bird and how much he or she is willing to trust you. We once fostered a BF Amazon, Lucky, who was very leery about being put in a cage. He also did not like to step up but did so against his will. Likewise, when we did get him comfortable with cages, he would periodically refuse to come out. I believe that this specific bird would have done very poorly in a situation where he was made to do things that he did not want to do - like step up - because he had a hard time feeling like part of a flock and did not trust anyone or anything. It is my opinion that he did not even have an interest in gaining trust in the future. At the same time, I have worked with many, many birds who refused to step up if it was not demanded of them, and if we had not forced them to step up, they would never have grown to be the wonderful birds they are today. Because we forced the issue, they felt motivated to want to trust us even if trust was not currently present in the relationship.

When Wanda's Benny BatToo arrived he refused to step up right out of the gate. Like a mother setting rules and boundaries for her children, we refused to comply with this unacceptable behavior. Benny quickly learned that this was not acceptable and the change in his level of security and willingness to cooperate was astounding. After a few days of learning what the rules are here, Benny had a complete attitude adjustment and now loves to step up to anyone at any time.

A better example of this practice is with Brenda's new sweety, Sydney. Sydney is very soft hearted but like all macaws, can also be very stubborn especially when she is roosting above one's head. Sydney does not like to step up at any time for anyone and we have to be firm with her to do so, especially when she is above our heads. It is very obvious that she is not a fan of stepping up but at the same time, being made to step up seems to bring her a lot of security and a sense of belonging. Being given the oppertunity to make her own decisions about whether or not to step up seems to make her feel vulnerable and displaced. Sydney has not yet learned to trust and is looking to herself for security, but everythihng about her body language says that she would very much like to learn to trust someone else. We have just not found the avinue for trust that works for her.

In the wild, parrots look to a "flock leader" for guidance and security. Many people seem to misunderstand the "flock leader" position as whoever is most aggressive or the "alpha" of the group but this is not always the case. Furthermore, who the flock leader is changes from time to time as well as other positions in the flock. Unlike some other animals such as dogs, birds seem to fall into place where and when they are needed and this continually changes as the flock's dynamic changes.

Humans and animals alike seem to find a since of security in looking to a trusted someone in their lives for guidance. Parrots are no exception when it comes to looking to others but the key to this is that they will look to someone that they trust for guidance. This is why trust is so important when it comes to having a good relationship with your companion parrot. There may be times when he looks to you because he see's you as the one who is in control and there may be times when he would rather be in control and will want you to follow his lead because he is feeling confident in himself and his flock. The bottom line is that if he trusts you, he will not see you as a bully when you ask things of him and he will feel good about you and himself when he cooperates with what you ask him to do - even if he is pouting because he did not get his way. This can be a simple step up command or something much more complicated. Our birds may not always like a decision we make about their care, but if they trust us they will understand that whatever we do is in their best interest. Know your bird and his specific needs and don't be afraid of hurting his feelings. He looks to you for guidance and that is an honor.
-Anna

[FoxersArtist]

Positive distractions are always a great way to keep birds (and kids) out of trouble. This is used heavily with our son who is into EVERYTHING and becomes quite upset when you try to remove his most recent discoveries.
-Anna
Most refer to forcing the bird (or any animal for that matter) to do something as "flooding" which is actually a known training technique. It's looked more down upon now, based off of what people have learned since then but it's still a training technique that works for some animals though definitely not all. I don't think people realize how often flooding is used in just every day occurances with their animals.

When my birds get into something they aren't supposed to, such as Cressi (http://flickr.com/photos/davewomach/2439452756/) as of late... she is curious about everything! I will just take away whatever it is she shouldn't have and replace it with something she can have. This way it's not "You can't do that" it's "You can do that but only with this".

[birdie]

Most refer to forcing the bird (or any animal for that matter) to do something as "flooding" which is actually a known training technique. It's looked more down upon now, based off of what people have learned since then but it's still a training technique that works for some animals though definitely not all. I don't think people realize how often flooding is used in just every day occurances with their animals.

When my birds get into something they aren't supposed to, such as Cressi (http://flickr.com/photos/davewomach/2439452756/) as of late... she is curious about everything! I will just take away whatever it is she shouldn't have and replace it with something she can have. This way it's not "You can't do that" it's "You can do that but only with this".

I don't force my birds often, but when they are in danger of getting their toes bitten, I'm gonna do whatever I can to remove them from another birds cage, you know how quickly a bird can get into trouble all they have to do is fly across a room and I know I can't move that fast. I agree replacing an undesired item works, but not if the item it not movable.
Thanks for the info

[birdie]

Point being with the story, if the birds are truly in an immediate threat I will tell them to step up, but I will scoop them up from under the belly. The CAG would probably give me a bite, but not good enough to break the skin. Carl would probably be startled and not know why I picked him up like that.....

this was my thought when I started the thread;)

[FoxersArtist]

My birds totally get scooped out of a dangerous situation. The usual look says: Whoah?! What was that for?!" but occasionally I get the look that says: "Oh mom! you saved me!"
-Anna

this was my thought when I started the thread;)

[Diane, Clouds assignment]

. . . . Carl would probably be startled and not know why I picked him up like that.....

After having an encounter with the dog, close enough to loose a tail feather, then in a panic, scurry up a strangers body and then resort to flight in an unfamilar territory, I would think that Carl would have been happy to have mommy scoop him up and know that he's safe and protected with her, an association of security he probably has always had when he felt threatened. My inexperienced self feels that Carls primary concern was a matter of survival and not that mommy didn't ask me to step up.

Cloud recently had a panic attack while he was out of his cage. I was in the kichen, where he can see me if he goes to that side of the cage. He suddenly started screaming in such a way that I thought he was getting killed. As I ran into the room, he flew off his cage and was heading for the bay window. He rarely flies and his landings are more like crashed landings. Anyway, I caught him mid air before he reached the window and quickly checked him for blood or missing appendages. I got his favorite fleece blanket and covered him with it and held him close to my chest. I could feel him trembling. I checked the cage and the room to see what could have hurt or scared him so much. The only other time I've ever heard him scream like that is when there was a wasp flying around his cage.

Well long story short, I found the culprit . . . it was a lady bug on the wall next to his cage. He wouldn't even go near the cage until I removed the hideous intruder. I don't think he minded or even remember being snatched out of the air, he just knew I had him and I wasn't going to let that evil bug get him.

[iti hoa's mom]

Most refer to forcing the bird (or any animal for that matter) to do something as "flooding" which is actually a known training technique. It's looked more down upon now, based off of what people have learned since then but it's still a training technique that works for some animals though definitely not all. I don't think people realize how often flooding is used in just every day occurances with their animals.

When my birds get into something they aren't supposed to, such as Cressi (http://flickr.com/photos/davewomach/2439452756/) as of late... she is curious about everything! I will just take away whatever it is she shouldn't have and replace it with something she can have. This way it's not "You can't do that" it's "You can do that but only with this".


Flooding as a known training technique is a negative training technique that has alternatives and no longer has a place in training. One arguement is other training techniques are too slow. Those that have done positive reinforcement, small steps, shorter time more frequent training sessions have far better success than those using flooding. You are right, people still use it not realizing they are. You most often see it done with the smaller birds. Again, can't think of one good reason to use flooding.

JMTCW

[birdie]

Oh poor CLoud, good thing momma saved the day! Those vicious ladybugs! :haha:

[Diane, Clouds assignment]

Cloud's reading over my shoulder and now he is mad at me for posting his lady bug incident on the internet. He's not talking to me and now I'll have to hide my credit cards and laptop so he doesn't sooth his hurt feeling with a shopping spree.

[Julie]

http://www.birdsupplies.com/v/vspfiles/photos/SB409-2.jpgHow about this one?:rofl:

[iti hoa's mom]

I don't force my birds often, but when they are in danger of getting their toes bitten, I'm gonna do whatever I can to remove them from another birds cage, you know how quickly a bird can get into trouble all they have to do is fly across a room and I know I can't move that fast. I agree replacing an undesired item works, but not if the item it not movable.
Thanks for the info


LOl, yep I know what you mean about a non moveable item. Obviously the technique used in this instance would not be a replacement one.

An example of replacement:

Bird has charge card, you need card and don't want bird to chew the card. I would offer a more desireable object...paper, leather or favorite treat. Replacement is not done by taking away an object...this is negative and can lead to a flooding act. Generally it is best to offer something which causes the bird to drop or relinquish what they have and accept something new. By taking away first can actually reinforce the behavior you are wanting to do away with.

With a dog....offer their favorite toy or treat.

For a child offer a shinier object or one that makes noise. Watch what they do. Their attention span is short so they will drop the one object to get the other. You say they just use the other hand. give the something for the other hand. Both are now full so give replacements to the side where you want the object released. Make they grab up hi...or low. Offering the object in a different direction takes focus off of it and usually it is too much trouble to hang on.

By trying to remove the object first, you bring attention to that object, your voice is usually different and your bird reads your body language. Yep, birds love drama and inadvertantly we just reinforced a behavior of playing with an object we did not want them to have.

Question...how many of you can wear jewelry? If you don't, why not.

Brenda, in your instance think about which bird you want to focus on. Maybe focus on the bird in the cage rather than the one flying to the cage and distract it until you catch up to the flyer. How might you accomplish that?. A simple beam from a flashlight pointed to the ground could be a simple distraction. Or point the beam at the top of the cage where your bird might want to avoid it. Back up and maybe train to go to certain places and reinforce that rather than shooing away from another place. Just a few thoughts for the moment.

off to play and train some birdies/dogs/fish

[birdie]

interesting idea! I'll have to get a small flashlight to put in my pocket.

Now... HOW do you train fish?? I WANT VIDEO!!! :rofl:



LOl, yep I know what you mean about a non moveable item. Obviously the technique used in this instance would not be a replacement one.

An example of replacement:

Bird has charge card, you need card and don't want bird to chew the card. I would offer a more desireable object...paper, leather or favorite treat. Replacement is not done by taking away an object...this is negative and can lead to a flooding act. Generally it is best to offer something which causes the bird to drop or relinquish what they have and accept something new. By taking away first can actually reinforce the behavior you are wanting to do away with.

With a dog....offer their favorite toy or treat.

For a child offer a shinier object or one that makes noise. Watch what they do. Their attention span is short so they will drop the one object to get the other. You say they just use the other hand. give the something for the other hand. Both are now full so give replacements to the side where you want the object released. Make they grab up hi...or low. Offering the object in a different direction takes focus off of it and usually it is too much trouble to hang on.

By trying to remove the object first, you bring attention to that object, your voice is usually different and your bird reads your body language. Yep, birds love drama and inadvertantly we just reinforced a behavior of playing with an object we did not want them to have.

Question...how many of you can wear jewelry? If you don't, why not.

Brenda, in your instance think about which bird you want to focus on. Maybe focus on the bird in the cage rather than the one flying to the cage and distract it until you catch up to the flyer. How might you accomplish that?. A simple beam from a flashlight pointed to the ground could be a simple distraction. Or point the beam at the top of the cage where your bird might want to avoid it. Back up and maybe train to go to certain places and reinforce that rather than shooing away from another place. Just a few thoughts for the moment.

off to play and train some birdies/dogs/fish

[bonnie]

This is a very interesting topic to me. I'm kind of torn. As a lot of you know, Chicken hates my mom. Before I started correcting her, she would come over and try to force him to do things like step up and be held by her. She would get in his cage and play with his things. She's a dog person, so I know she was trying to dominate him. This attitude didn't work for her.
I occasionally will force Chicken to comply. Like, when he's chewing on something he's not supposed to or when I'm running late and he refuses to step up so I can put him in his cage. I can't let him be the boss all the time. On that note, there are times Chicken does exactly what Chicken wants to. Like if I'm home for the day and he wants to hang out in the bathroom on the shower rod all day, I don't stop him. Or if he wants to be in his cage all day, I leave the door open and let him be.
I guess what I'm trying to say is there's a fine line between force and parronting. Each of us know our birds well enough to know where that line is. We just have to remember to be patient, but at the same time, not get walked all over.

[FoxersArtist]

you train fish too?! ;)

No jewelry here except for wedding rings. Occassionally I will hold a bird after going to a fancy dinner or party and remember why I never wear it at other times!
-Anna

LOl, yep I know what you mean about a non moveable item. Obviously the technique used in this instance would not be a replacement one.

An example of replacement:

Bird has charge card, you need card and don't want bird to chew the card. I would offer a more desireable object...paper, leather or favorite treat. Replacement is not done by taking away an object...this is negative and can lead to a flooding act. Generally it is best to offer something which causes the bird to drop or relinquish what they have and accept something new. By taking away first can actually reinforce the behavior you are wanting to do away with.

With a dog....offer their favorite toy or treat.

For a child offer a shinier object or one that makes noise. Watch what they do. Their attention span is short so they will drop the one object to get the other. You say they just use the other hand. give the something for the other hand. Both are now full so give replacements to the side where you want the object released. Make they grab up hi...or low. Offering the object in a different direction takes focus off of it and usually it is too much trouble to hang on.

By trying to remove the object first, you bring attention to that object, your voice is usually different and your bird reads your body language. Yep, birds love drama and inadvertantly we just reinforced a behavior of playing with an object we did not want them to have.

Question...how many of you can wear jewelry? If you don't, why not.

Brenda, in your instance think about which bird you want to focus on. Maybe focus on the bird in the cage rather than the one flying to the cage and distract it until you catch up to the flyer. How might you accomplish that?. A simple beam from a flashlight pointed to the ground could be a simple distraction. Or point the beam at the top of the cage where your bird might want to avoid it. Back up and maybe train to go to certain places and reinforce that rather than shooing away from another place. Just a few thoughts for the moment.

off to play and train some birdies/dogs/fish

[Dot]

Since I ask this of myself several times a day, I am going to be tacky and ask "How did the bird get into a dangerous situation?" Isn't it our job to keep them out of trouble? Gotta go. Blusher (RFM) is up here with me (and on my head again) because if I leave her out and leave the room, trouble will come knocking. I didn't want to put her in the incarceration pod again.

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

If any of my birds are in a bad situation they are being taken away from it. Period.
I handle it like Brenda does. I slide my fingers under the feet or scoop him up and immediately redirect his attention. Diversion always work here. I don't get bitten (threatened, yes) because of the trust. When Linus is doing something he is not supposed to be doing and I take him away from it, he knows he's not going to get in trouble as long as he cooperates and he has no fear of me.

[iti hoa's mom]

Well, I was really going to town on an answer for Anna and Brenda that I lost count of the number of words. I went to post and it wouldn't and I lost everything I wrote.

Will take a break and get back to you later. Oh, on the fish Anna. It is pavlovs theory. Put a hoop in the tank...fish goes through hoop and ring the bell. Do this enough and then give food. ring the bell and fish goes through hoop. Same principle that they teach dolphins to retrieve items from the bottom of the ocean.

The principles are the same. The hard part is how to translate it into actually doing the training. Requires you to think and be observant. Once you get the hang of it gets much easier. How many of you slipped to tell an employee "good bird". One can then tell that you use a lot of praise. Hey, my grandkids immitate me and are good about giving praise and remaining calm.

[Jamieleigh]

Flooding as a known training technique is a negative training technique that has alternatives and no longer has a place in training. One arguement is other training techniques are too slow. Those that have done positive reinforcement, small steps, shorter time more frequent training sessions have far better success than those using flooding. You are right, people still use it not realizing they are. You most often see it done with the smaller birds. Again, can't think of one good reason to use flooding.

JMTCW

My point is... everyone here has admitted to using the flooding technique. Forcing your bird to step up is flooding. Forcing your bird to do anything - is flooding. So is there a real answer to whether it's truly good or bad?

It may be negative reinforcement (http://jamiesparrothelp.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/negative-reinforcement-leaving-your-bird-alone/) but I don't think people who believe negative reinforcement is wrong understand it in its entirety. I'm not saying I'm "pro negative reinforcement" or "pro flooding", I'm merely pointing out that these techniques do work in some cases and can have positive outcomes.

For example, we trained our military macaw, Cash, to be well socialized using negative reinforcement. When we first got him, he was aggressive, mean, independant and scared. He wanted nothing to do with us. Dave spent 15 minutes training "The Power Pause (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuERdlr2BZg)" with him and he was cuddling (http://jamiesparrothelp.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/militarymacawcash.jpg?w=300) with Dave. This is seen as using negative reinforcement because the reward to the bird was Dave leaving him alone which in turn is "a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of the stopping or avoiding of a negative condition." The negative condition in our case was seen as Dave.

I, for one, have seen this type of training work with so many birds and it can bring for a positive outcome because the bird learns that the person is in fact, safe and fun for the bird to be around.

Now when training Cash anything involving other people, Dave is Cash's reward. So when we were teaching Cash to come to me - Dave would hand him to me, and as his reward I would wait for him to calm down then hand him back to Dave where he got love and affection. From this, we began lengthening the amount of time Cash sat on my hand. We did this with our entire stage crew at the time and Cash ended up being the easiest of the flock for everyone to handle which was a huge accomplishment for Cash.

Even when flight training Cash, his reward for his flights (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bhpiw_u7T_M) were merely just landing on Dave and being with him. I explain all this just to show how negative reinforcement can be used and have a positive outcome.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Here is a training video using positive reinforcement...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkI9PvOsjS0&feature=related

Here is another one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdrFauIMtn8&NR=1

[Diane, Clouds assignment]

. . . . . Oh, on the fish Anna. It is pavlovs theory. Put a hoop in the tank...fish goes through hoop and ring the bell. Do this enough and then give food. ring the bell and fish goes through hoop. Same principle that they teach dolphins to retrieve items from the bottom of the ocean. . . .

Is that how Larry was trained? :snicker:

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Is that how Larry was trained? :snicker:

Yep - you found me out :D

[Diane, Clouds assignment]

Someone on the Happy Birdy Holiday ring a bell and see if Larry jumps through a hoop. Have a camera ready. :D:D

[Dot]

lady bug on the wall next to his cage. He wouldn't even go near the cage until I removed the hideous intruder.

Don't let anyone make fun of Cloud for that phobia. I'll sick Fergie (Scarlet) on them. She understands because the first year she lived here I had to leave the curtains closed a lot. She is terrified of hummingbirds and will let out the macaw warning yell.

[Diane, Clouds assignment]

I don't undrstand it. Cloud will entice, chase and attack a 100lb German Shepherd, but is terrified by a ladybug.

[Julie]

My Carl will attack the glass with the cats on the other side but is scared of moths and flys.... I'm in the same boat Diane!

[iti hoa's mom]

My point is... everyone here has admitted to using the flooding technique. Forcing your bird to step up is flooding. Forcing your bird to do anything - is flooding. So is there a real answer to whether it's truly good or bad?

It may be negative reinforcement (http://jamiesparrothelp.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/negative-reinforcement-leaving-your-bird-alone/) but I don't think people who believe negative reinforcement is wrong understand it in its entirety. I'm not saying I'm "pro negative reinforcement" or "pro flooding", I'm merely pointing out that these techniques do work in some cases and can have positive outcomes.

For example, we trained our military macaw, Cash, to be well socialized using negative reinforcement. When we first got him, he was aggressive, mean, independant and scared. He wanted nothing to do with us. Dave spent 15 minutes training "The Power Pause (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuERdlr2BZg)" with him and he was cuddling (http://jamiesparrothelp.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/militarymacawcash.jpg?w=300) with Dave. This is seen as using negative reinforcement because the reward to the bird was Dave leaving him alone which in turn is "a particular behavior is strengthened by the consequence of the stopping or avoiding of a negative condition." The negative condition in our case was seen as Dave.

I, for one, have seen this type of training work with so many birds and it can bring for a positive outcome because the bird learns that the person is in fact, safe and fun for the bird to be around.

Now when training Cash anything involving other people, Dave is Cash's reward. So when we were teaching Cash to come to me - Dave would hand him to me, and as his reward I would wait for him to calm down then hand him back to Dave where he got love and affection. From this, we began lengthening the amount of time Cash sat on my hand. We did this with our entire stage crew at the time and Cash ended up being the easiest of the flock for everyone to handle which was a huge accomplishment for Cash.

Even when flight training Cash, his reward for his flights (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bhpiw_u7T_M) were merely just landing on Dave and being with him. I explain all this just to show how negative reinforcement can be used and have a positive outcome.


Flooding is not an acceptable training technique in this day. Not all negative behavior is flooding so it should not be linked that way. Leaving a room for a bird screaming is a negative behavior but it is not flooding and yes i do understand the difference Jamieleigh. I did not say either that negative reinforcement is wrong only flooding is not needed to train. There is a big difference between the two so please don't confuse what I have written.

An example is of alpha dog roll. When the monks of New Skeet used this method it was thought that was how the alpha dog roll was. Later it was noted that the alpha dog roll is serious and precursor to kiling vs a parent dog chastising a pup...two very different things. ONe of the trainers has gone on record a number of times stating it was a wrong thing to teach.

I will go back to telling those that want to understand how applied behavior analysis works (based on BF Skinners teachings) get the book Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. Escuse me but you can't very well grab a dolphin fin and pull them aside for doing something wrong. Turning your back and ignoring them does work but it is a negative. There is positive/positive positive/negative Negative positive and negative negative behaviors. It takes practice and understanding to know what these are and when the use is appropriate. Flooding is NOT one to use. This technique takes away all sense for the bird, loss of fight/flight response and overwhelms the animals senses to the point of surrender and preparation for death. Far different than turning your back on a bird as a negative reinforcement.

Oh, by the way Larry, nice video you posted. If you have a bird that immitates sounds be careful of clickers....mine love giving clicks. LOL

Watch the video hear what they have to say. Timing is a very important part of the training. Clicking late may be rewarding a different behavior than what you think. Have fun and give your babies a hug

[iti hoa's mom]

My point is... everyone here has admitted to using the flooding technique.

Just to clarify. Everyone here has NOT admitted to using flooding...


Thank you

[bonnie]

So, for the confused Bonnie, is making Chicken step up or stop a behavior considered flooding? I'm trying to get this straightened out in my head. You can't always just let a bird do as it pleases, that just doesn't make sense.

[iti hoa's mom]

Bonnie, there is a variety of ways to stop a bird from what they are doing. Positive training is to encourage them to do something vs forcing.

negative reinforcement and flooding are not the same thing. Force is the problem.

Going in a cage. Practice having your bird go in the cage at different times and then let him out. Praise each time he goes in...not just at night when you want him to. Move onto night time. Maybe story time, some music, lights out can be used to give him a little "extra" before putting him to bed. Save a special treat in the bowl or towards the back of the cage to be used only when he goes to bed. If he even partly goes to the cage praise. We too often reinforce the negative rather than encouraging the positive as sometimes that is what is easier for us.

I will tell one of the birds. Time for night night....want your cracker. We make a big deal out of going to get the cracker (any birdy treat she likes) then head to the cage and I put the cracker in where she can see it then let her climb in. It is a night time ritual that is positive. But make sure they have enough exercise or out time so they are ok with going to bed. Oh...this is NO NO BAD BIRD that is the sweetest thing who learned stepping up is fun, mamma is the cracker dispensor and cage time can be fun.

Have small practice sessions teaching different things. It is ok to do step ups and laddering....just make it fun and a game. Don't demand it when there is no reason to. Bribe with food or toy or praise.

your voice and body language says a lot.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Bonnie,

The term "flooding" is just what it means... The animal's senses are flooded to the point it cannot fight - it cannot flee --- it prepares itself for death --- no longer the struggle for fight or flight --- let death come.

Jamie did use the terms flooding and negative reinforcement interchangably - but flooding is entirely different than witholding a reward or moving away from the animal.

If you want to see flooding in action, do a search on Ken Globus. He calls himself the bird whisperer --- he does flooding.

I will have to say --- and Jamie might take objection to this... Chet Womach of BirdTricks.com has been accused of using flooding in his earlier days of bird training. I do not have any of his videos - but I have done research on him - and he himself admits that he has changed his training techniques from his earlier days.

A point in case when he demonstrated training with two sticks. One for target and one for distraction. He kept using both sticks until the bird did comply -- but in fact the bird gave up... hence flooding.

[Jamieleigh]

Bonnie,

The term "flooding" is just what it means... The animal's senses are flooded to the point it cannot fight - it cannot flee --- it prepares itself for death --- no longer the struggle for fight or flight --- let death come.

Jamie did use the terms flooding and negative reinforcement interchangably - but flooding is entirely different than witholding a reward or moving away from the animal.

If you want to see flooding in action, do a search on Ken Globus. He calls himself the bird whisperer --- he does flooding.

I will have to say --- and Jamie might take objection to this... Chet Womach of BirdTricks.com has been accused of using flooding in his earlier days of bird training. I do not have any of his videos - but I have done research on him - and he himself admits that he has changed his training techniques from his earlier days.

A point in case when he demonstrated training with two sticks. One for target and one for distraction. He kept using both sticks until the bird did comply -- but in fact the bird gave up... hence flooding.

I don't take objection. I'm pretty used to hearing people (mostly trainers) upset with my brother in law's previous training methods. I won't stand around and say he was right or wrong, but I do know he was going off of what he learned at the time from other trainers and he isn't the type to just make something work. He's the type to do in depth research and learn before teaching others. And at the time, flooding was what was popular and being taught and used. And you're right, since then he has done what he can to make it publicly known (http://ezinearticles.com/?Flooding---A-Bad-Parrot-Training-Technique&id=555017) that he has since learned better.

Most people don't realize that Chet and Dave knew nothing about parrot training in the beginning. The whole take on their videos was that they were the average Joe just like you and me - and that they were learning from books and everything they could and then trying it. They took you through their learning process; their successes and failures. Dave knew a bit about flight training because he had doves for his magic act but other than that, they had two mean family birds that their parents got to "look pretty" in the window. They were never touched or handled. The macaw was 20 years old and so was the senegal parrot. They are the two birds that inspired Bird Tricks (http://www.birdtricks.com) to bloom through taming, training and tricks.

[Jamieleigh]

Flooding is not an acceptable training technique in this day. Not all negative behavior is flooding so it should not be linked that way. Leaving a room for a bird screaming is a negative behavior but it is not flooding and yes i do understand the difference Jamieleigh. I did not say either that negative reinforcement is wrong only flooding is not needed to train. There is a big difference between the two so please don't confuse what I have written.

An example is of alpha dog roll. When the monks of New Skeet used this method it was thought that was how the alpha dog roll was. Later it was noted that the alpha dog roll is serious and precursor to kiling vs a parent dog chastising a pup...two very different things. ONe of the trainers has gone on record a number of times stating it was a wrong thing to teach.

I will go back to telling those that want to understand how applied behavior analysis works (based on BF Skinners teachings) get the book Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. Escuse me but you can't very well grab a dolphin fin and pull them aside for doing something wrong. Turning your back and ignoring them does work but it is a negative. There is positive/positive positive/negative Negative positive and negative negative behaviors. It takes practice and understanding to know what these are and when the use is appropriate. Flooding is NOT one to use. This technique takes away all sense for the bird, loss of fight/flight response and overwhelms the animals senses to the point of surrender and preparation for death. Far different than turning your back on a bird as a negative reinforcement.



I see where I misunderstood what you first said on flooding. You used the word "negative" (in that flooding was a negative form of training) and I think in my head I read "negative reinforcement" when you meant negative just as "bad". Since I thought you were housing flooding and negative reinforcement in the same catagory, I did the same to basically talk about negative reinforcement when really... you didn't even mention it in the first place! I'm sorry for the misunderstanding but it's good to know we really are on the same page even if our communication really lacks (or maybe it's just mine!)

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Hi Jamie - Thanks for the input.

I read your links. I love it when Dave said...
----------------------
The Macaw parrot is no ordinary pet. Their sheer size and biting capability is reason for caution. One look at their beak, sometimes called a “can opener” attached to feathers, is enough to make most people run for cover. And yet most of us are captivated by the beautiful plumage and fascinating personalities these birds display.
----------------------

There is a big difference between positive reinforcement and flooding. I read the link you posted about what Chet said.... Good stuff.

I recommend everyone to learn more about the not so obvious differences between the flooding methods where the animal gives up and positive reinforcement.

Unfortunately the untrained eye cannot tell the differences... but if a google is done for Cesar Millan flooding things do become a bit clearer. Cesar is the dog whisperer and most folks think he is a miracle worker with dogs - but he is a flooder who has put dog training back 20 years.

Another flooder is Ken Globus aka the bird whisperer. A search on ken globus flooding is an eye opener as well.

Then do searches on the modern-day experts such as Dr. Dodman and Karen Pryor and Susan Friedman

www.goodbirdinc.com (http://www.goodbirdinc.com) is another valuable source for positive reinforcement.

We all do learn -- don't we?

[birdie]

Wow! Lots of good information and ideas! I’ve been reading and rereading this thread trying to compare if what I’m doing is actual flooding. I don’t see it as negative behavior or see my birds react to it as a negative. I go up to them and say what are you doing!? You’re gonna get your toes bit come to momma and swiftly move my hand up and under the bird and pull them in for a cuddle and put them to a safer place and give them a scritch. I haven’t been bitten for this or growled at, and I don’t see them as just giving up. I will continue to learn as every parrot owner should.
I am going to try some different behaviors and see how things go. I’m sure I will refer back to this thread and its video links many times. I am hoping that the cage rearranging will help to solve some of the trouble spots for my babies.

Thank you everyone for all of the input!

[iti hoa's mom]

Wow! Lots of good information and ideas! I’ve been reading and rereading this thread trying to compare if what I’m doing is actual flooding. I don’t see it as negative behavior or see my birds react to it as a negative. I go up to them and say what are you doing!? You’re gonna get your toes bit come to momma and swiftly move my hand up and under the bird and pull them in for a cuddle and put them to a safer place and give them a scritch. I haven’t been bitten for this or growled at, and I don’t see them as just giving up. I will continue to learn as every parrot owner should.
I am going to try some different behaviors and see how things go. I’m sure I will refer back to this thread and its video links many times. I am hoping that the cage rearranging will help to solve some of the trouble spots for my babies.

Thank you everyone for all of the input!

What you describe is not flooding.

[Jamieleigh]

I found this website/thread (http://www.fluffies.org/en/parrot-behavior-problems-like-biting-plucking-screaming_chet-womach-vt3095.html) a pretty interesting read as it's pretty much what we're talking about (along the lines of flooding techniques).

[Dot]

Jamie did use the terms flooding and negative reinforcement interchangably - but flooding is entirely different than witholding a reward or moving away from the animal.



Larry, negative reinforecement is not withholding a reward. It is the cessation of a negative stimulus. If a person is the negative stimulus, then removing the person would be negative reinforcement.

[iti hoa's mom]

I found this website/thread (http://www.fluffies.org/en/parrot-behavior-problems-like-biting-plucking-screaming_chet-womach-vt3095.html) a pretty interesting read as it's pretty much what we're talking about (along the lines of flooding techniques).


Gosh, I have not been to the fluffies site in quite some time. I loved seeing Sue post about her MM. Living in the Netherlands, she would take her MM to outdoor cafes. Her pictures are wonderful.

And I see cheetah over there. Many may remember her. She still posts with us on one of the other boards. Her appollo is a hoot. Just so full of energy. She also has two MM (major mitchell tooz) Achilles and Athena...just beautiful.

People just want to do what is best for their birds and animals. Things have changed even more since this thread from 2006.

What is confusing for some is how the terms negative and positive are used. It is not always what one thinks. So don't feel bad if it is hard to follow. When Susan Friedman teaches her weekend class of 16-18 hours a lot of time is spent on negative and positive. Scenarios are given and the class needs to point out which type of reinforcer is at work. It does take practice. I will see if I can find my book that talks about this. Dot did point out and clarified about negative.


When I first used the abc's of behavior 18 years ago, I used it in a different context and situations....people. I had always thought it would be good to use with birds and had used it. And to my surprise I found someone was teaching the use of the abc's with birds.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Heeeere's Achilles and Athena...

http://www.happybirdy.com/Page_03.htm

http://www.happybirdy.com/Page_04.htm

Gosh - I love those birds.

[MaryG1959]

I've seen Ken Globus in action. No way would he touch my birds, no way, no how!

I have never seen anything like it, to me and in my opinion, hes a "bird terrorist" he scares the living daylights out of birds and then proclaims them "TAMED

My birds, my opinion---but no way for my birds.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Mary,

Have you been to one of Ken's - what ever it's called - mirical cure shows??? I have only seen videos of what he does. To the uninformed it looks wonderful - but he is in fact dangerous... and bird clubs keep inviting him in --- and he charges quite a bit for his "performance".

Please tell us what you saw.

[iti hoa's mom]

I've seen Ken Globus in action. No way would he touch my birds, no way, no how!

I have never seen anything like it, to me and in my opinion, hes a "bird terrorist" he scares the living daylights out of birds and then proclaims them "TAMED

My birds, my opinion---but no way for my birds.

You got it right Mary. Just keep doing what you do and chief is so fortunate to have you.

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Gosh, I have not been to the fluffies site in quite some time. I loved seeing Sue post about her MM. Living in the Netherlands, she would take her MM to outdoor cafes. Her pictures are wonderful.

And I see cheetah over there. Many may remember her. She still posts with us on one of the other boards. Her appollo is a hoot. Just so full of energy. She also has two MM (major mitchell tooz) Achilles and Athena...just beautiful.

People just want to do what is best for their birds and animals. Things have changed even more since this thread from 2006.

What is confusing for some is how the terms negative and positive are used. It is not always what one thinks. So don't feel bad if it is hard to follow. When Susan Friedman teaches her weekend class of 16-18 hours a lot of time is spent on negative and positive. Scenarios are given and the class needs to point out which type of reinforcer is at work. It does take practice. I will see if I can find my book that talks about this. Dot did point out and clarified about negative.


When I first used the abc's of behavior 18 years ago, I used it in a different context and situations....people. I had always thought it would be good to use with birds and had used it. And to my surprise I found someone was teaching the use of the abc's with birds.

Her Appollo the Gymnast video was the funniest thing ever.

[Dot]

Jamie and iti hoa's mom, you are both in such big trouble. I am not allowed to go to Sue's site. I don't have it saved as a favorite. If I go over there and end up with a Major Mitchell, I will blame you two. But, here I go over there to look. :)

[MaryG1959]

Yes I have been to one of his sessions, it was held at a bird show and I watched as blood dripped from his fingers and hands while he swung a bird around until it was scared for his life and frightened.....he then pronounced it tame.

He's an idiot and no way would he or anyone like him touch my birds.:mad:

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Hi Mary,

I have never been to one of his "sessions" but I have been tracking him for quite a while.

He is a showman and that is all he is. He and other yo-yos like Cesar Millan are doing the animal world a great injustice. They and other "performers" are just that - performers and have nothing in common with "educated" animal behavorists.

Yep - Ken Globus and ones like him are dangerous.

Here are some of his vids. Pay close attention to the flooding - the bird gives up.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Pm6OivjeWbo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNizlyOOAyU&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmhvUt7Y8s8&NR=1

[too&me]

He is a tough idiot, bleeding for his audience! Sad for the bird subject.

[MaryG1959]

In my opinion, you cannot compare him w/cesar milan. Though I have not met him in person Cesar (through his tv appearances) is about getting the dog to obey in the most "non-violent" way possible.

Ken globus is anything but a "gentle" man.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

I have watched just about every one of Cesar's episodes. I really like him - I think he has some wonderful training methods... but he also uses flooding at times.

Perhaps comparing the two was not accurate --- but they both do use flooding.