Toe tapping

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

I got a call from Linus's former owners a short time ago. They have a RB2, female, 3YO (I think she's a rehome) that is stomping it's foot, actually both feet . They said it seems involuntary and will sometimes attack the foot that jerks. I told them to get her to the vet and have her blood checked for heavy metals. They said they went to the vet today and their usual vet wasn't there and the vet they did see told them that it was probably hormones due to the time of year and to go home and wait for more serious symptoms like weight loss. Can you believe that??? So they are waiting for their real vet because this other one is clearly incompetent and will go back tomorrow. Does heavy metal poisoning sound right to you? Is the bird in any immediate danger tonight?? Thanks.

Patty

[too&me]

Another reason can be a pellet diet, it is also one of the signs of hypervitaminosis.

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Thanks, I'll pass that on.

[EasySpirit]

How old is the bird and how long have they had it and what do they feed it? Ekkies have a different dietary need than some birds. Less protein, a bit more fruit. They have a longer interstine so will absorb more thus hypervitaminosis. Ekkies are known for toe tapping and frequently it is dietary related.

Do a search on toe toe tapping. This is one reason one needs to be careful about adding vitamin mixes to a good diet.

[too&me]

It is a Rose Breasted Too correct? I know that Ekkies require more Vitamin A than other parrots.

[iti hoa's mom]

Hmmm, Maybe Don might have some insight as he raises Rosies :bgrin: Don just might share about the pellet tree also! :sealed:

Peggy (Tony's mom) who is the best Rosie there ever was.

Tony's new words sounds. He sees me in the morning, smacks me a kiss and says Gooood Sugar. I jus might need to give Don a call and let him hear his boy talking.

What a love!

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Hmmm, Maybe Don might have some insight as he raises Rosies :bgrin: Don just might share about the pellet tree also! :sealed:

Peggy (Tony's mom) who is the best Rosie there ever was.

Tony's new words sounds. He sees me in the morning, smacks me a kiss and says Gooood Sugar. I jus might need to give Don a call and let him hear his boy talking.

What a love!

It's a RB2. I am hoping to hear from Don. And I expect a word or two about the pellet tree. Tony sounds too cute. Ya know, a video of that would be nice!

[Don]

Toe tapping is a sign of hypervitaminosis, and Rosies can also display extreme ankle biting, to the point of amputation or death if it isn't stopped asap.

Pellet trees -where ?

so - now we know there is a definate problem - what is this bird really being fed ?

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Thanks to all of you. The rosie's owners will be grateful for all of your help. I will let you know what happens at the vet tomorrow. I just hope that their actual vet isn't as foolish as the one they saw today!

[birdscomefirst]

I am just throwing my agreement into the mix. Blood work needs to be done for heavy metals and hypervitaminosis is often the reason for this. The hormone concept is way off on this one. It's more than that. It should be solveable (is that a word? ) but get to the vet that has a clue.

Thanks,
Bill

[too&me]

We need an update please!

[EasySpirit]

Patty, how did the Rosie's vet visit go today?

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

I don't know yet. I've been at work all day and my daughter just flew in tonight. I think it's too late to call them now. I just e-mailed them for info. I'll hopefully have more tomorrow.

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

FYI. I got an email saying that he'd taken the pellets out of the cage and that the bird was showing signs of wanting to be hand-fed (bobbing it's head type stuff) but 'wasn't any worse'. I'm hoping that doesn't mean he thinks this doesn't warrant a visit to the vet. I told him that removing the pellets was not going to make her better and reminded him that she was showing signs of being really ill NOW and that this could still be metal poisoning... I haven't heard back yet. I'm hoping it's because he is at the vet. I'll keep you updated.

[too&me]

Appreciate the update & I would also recommend a Vet visit sooner rather than later.

[Jamieleigh]

Hey everyone,

I wanted to write in here because Patty asked this on behalf of my husband and I before referring me to this website and for that, I am very grateful!

Bondi, our rose breasted cockatoo, is doing much better since we contacted Patty. We took her pellet diet away (she was on a Mazuri pellet) and are giving her a new diet of all supplements (egg whites, oatmeal, fruits and veggies) and also took away her tap water as we are afraid it may contain something ill for her as well. She has not done any foot tapping in two solid days.

We were not able to get in to our vet - only the other one that works at the same place who believes everything is "behavioral" or "seasonal" - so we researched new people and found a highly recommended Avian specialist. He told us of all the tests we need to do to start "ruling out" specific illnesses and said the diet change was correct. He also suggested that if Bondi wants baby food, to give it to her because he felt she knows what her body needs.

Our Congo African Grey, Cressi, is still just barely hand feeding and so we have given Bondi a little hand formula. She ate about a half ounce of it yesterday and hasn't craved any today.

We have an appointment for tomorrow morning at 8AM to have x-rays taken of her body and legs as well as blood work done for heavy metals (lead, zinc).

I will keep you all posted on her progress and thank you all so much for your help!

[too&me]

Thank you for the update it is so scary when something happens to our FIDS. Looking forward to more progress reports. All the best wihes your way.

[Uncle]

JamieLeigh,

What are some of the indications that heavy metals should be tested for?

Please understand - I am not saying that they should not be tested for heavy metals - I think they should. I am just wondering if the toe-tapping is another symptom of heavy metal toxins.

I know about all the other heavy metal symptoms - I just never thought about adding toe-tapping to the list. Please keep us updated on this vitally important issue.

Thank you,

Larry

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Hey Larry,

When I googled toe tapping heavy metals was the first thing that came up and also this subject came up on the 'other board' once and was discussed as a result of heavy metals. Fortunately you all knew about the hypervitaminosis thing as well.

[Uncle]

Hey Patty,

I don't know how that one passed me by. I just now did a google on

toe tapping heavy metals

And there it is - all over the net.

It is now added to my list of heavy metal symptoms.

Thank you so much.

[Jamieleigh]

All of Bondi's x-rays today looked healthy and normal. The vet thinks this may be a neurological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurology) issue. We are waiting on her bloodwork to come back which could be as long as 10 days, as it was sent out this morning.

I bought a bag of Harrison's (http://www.harrisonsbirdfood.com) food today and she ate it willingly.

The foot tapping was really bad this morning at her appointment. Like I said, she hadn't tapped in two solid days and this morning it was crazy. She hadn't had any breakfast yet, and we are wondering if that plays any sort of connection?

And the heavy metal testing was done based off of Patty's research as well as confirmed by an Avian Specialist we talked to over the phone.

[Uncle]

That is the "normal" time to get test results back - and it always bugs me.

My vet at times has sent blood samples overnight to the lab with instructions to call her with the results.

The last tests I had done for Baby with heavy metals - The blood sample was drawn at 11:30 AM on Monday and my vet called me the next day at 2:30 PM with the results.

Without my knowledge - she thought is was so important to know what was going on with Baby that she overnighted the samples to the lab with instructions that this was an emergency and for them to call my vet with the results.

So - it can be done quickly --- and it should be done quickly when heavy metals are suspected.

My advice -- call your vet and see if you can speed up the process.

Just MHO.

Larry

[Debz_Crew]

Waiting for blood work seems like forever doesn't it?

I hope you and your Vet (mine is an Avian Specialist also, and I love her!) find out what is going on soon. Keep us updated! :)

[Jamieleigh]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/girlkicksyou/bird%20tricks/CCF04182008_00001.jpg?t=1208558452


My vet said she would put in a call if the results are not back by Tuesday. She has consulted with many other Avian Specialists (such as Brian Spears and Bob Donnelly) and they seem to think this may be Neuralgia (http://www.hmc.psu.edu/healthinfo/no/neuralgia.htm).

Unfortunately, there is no specific test for Neuralgia and so we have to go by process of ellimination with everything else. Also, the cause is most commonly unknown which makes it ultimately harder.

I should know a lot more by Tuesday and will hopefully have more to report then. We took Bondi to Cocoa Beach today and she did really well. Every once in a while she had some toe tapping happening but hardly any at all. She has been more energetic lately in her flights and a lot more talkative.

Above is a picture of Bondi and I from today at Cocoa Beach!

[Evelyn]

Larry and guys:

Down, boys!

You all probably didn't even notice she had a harness on the bird.

What do you mean, what bird! :haha:

Seriously, this gal knows what she is talking about, and altho I would not have said so before, I think she's right.

Evelyn

[Don]

Excuse me - the idea that pellets can cause hypervitaminosis, and a sign of that is incessant toe tapping - she fed the bird some Harrisons and it got worse - what is 2+2? Or was I reading some other list ?

was there a bird ? :)

[Jamieleigh]

Excuse me - the idea that pellets can cause hypervitaminosis, and a sign of that is incessant toe tapping - she fed the bird some Harrisons and it got worse - what is 2+2? Or was I reading some other list ?

was there a bird ? :)

My vet instructed me not to take pellets completely away from Bondi's diet as there is no way for us to entirely duplicate what her natural diet would be in the wild. I was told people who take their birds off of pellets completely, often lose their birds and since I'm not an expert in the medical field, I thought I'd listen since my vet is consulting with some of the best Avian Specialists there are (Teresa Lightfoot as well as the others I've previously mentioned).

Unfortunately, when it comes to anything medical related, I have to trust my vet.

Also, perhaps I should have made myself more clear in my posts - Bondi's toe tapping was worse when I took her in to the vet which was before I started giving her pellets again. While at the appointment, I purchased a bag of Harrison's and after eating, she was doing better which is why I am wondering if a full stomach is related to these symtoms at all.

This is where, "The foot tapping was really bad this morning at her appointment. Like I said, she hadn't tapped in two solid days and this morning it was crazy. She hadn't had any breakfast yet, and we are wondering if that plays any sort of connection?" came from.

As far as my most recent update on her health goes, I wrote, "We took Bondi to Cocoa Beach today and she did really well. Every once in a while she had some toe tapping happening but hardly any at all. She has been more energetic lately in her flights and a lot more talkative." and that is since she has had Harrison's in her diet.

She gets fruits and veggies first to eat and later gets the Harrison's added. I want her to eat as many real foods as possible when she is more hungry than just jumping right into pellets.

I feel that we are making progress, not stepping backwards. I apologize if my posts were unclear at any point and am still open to your thoughts on diet.

[too&me]

Thank you for the clarification on the diet. Let us know how Bondi is progressing we do care.

[Jamieleigh]

Here's another update on Bondi's condition...

She has been eating really well. I actually had a scare and thought her foot was bleeding but it ended up being stained berry juice! So it ended up being a really positive thing and told me that she's eating tons of berries and still eating the Harrison's.

She has woken us up the last two mornings with baby sounds at which she performs on her toys. I have had to remove 3 different toys from her cage to hopefully not reinforce the behavior but it seems that she just moves from toy to toy no matter which ones I take out or leave in. My vet suggested taking any out that may give her a reflection of any sort (bells, metals, etc) and keep it down to merely chewables for now.

At one point in time when I took Bondi to see the vet, the underside of one of her feet was pretty pink. I checked it out yesterday thoroughly and have kept an eye on it since the vet ever said anything and it has looked less and less pink (this is why I had the serious scare it was bleeding before). However, one of the simple tests we can do to rule something out is a smear of the bottom of her foot so we are doing that this afternoon. This will hopefully rule out bacteria or yeast.

Another test we are doing is to make sure nothing is wrong with her liver as far as it being enlarged. This is going to be done through a blood test so it's also a simple test we can do (as far as what the bird has to do). I'm not sure if it also tests to see if the ovaries are enlarged but as far as that general area, that is what we are going for.

Her zinc test results were said to come back as elevated - but my vet stated that she looked up the numbers and it was nothing to be concerned about. Also, while telling other specialists about this they said that those tests are mostly inaccurate and that zinc tests need to be done with radiographic (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/radiographic) tests. However, they had a chance to look at her x-rays and said if you don't see any foreign objects, etc. then you don't need to do this test as it won't be toxicosis (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/toxicosis). The other symtoms of toxicosis are bloody diarrhea, vomitting, etc... none of which Bondi has.

Basically, it can still be neuralgia or it could even be behavioral. We still don't have a diagnosis.

Other things my vet ran by me are;

Gout (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/gout) - The test for this would be to asperate the joints of the bird. Gout is basically kidney disease or it can be dietary.

EEG (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/EEG) - This where the bird would be hooked up to some device (I forget what it's called) and they would study the nerves.

Anti-Inflammatory - This medicaton (I think she reffered to it as Gabapentin but I'm not 100% sure on that) can cause sedation so lower doses would be used, however, it has the possibility of having the opposite effect.

PVDD - Would need to be done with a biopsy and Bondi would need to show more symptoms in order to justify testing for this.

And so goes the process of elimination... :confused:

[too&me]

That is a great deal of information, the machine would be an Electroencephalograph-hence the EEG for short. With gout there should be some swelling of the joints or possibly some heat if the swelling is not evident yet. Lets hope the sympmtoms subside so Bondi does not have to undergo extensive testing.

[Jamieleigh]

I also wonder if we are way over-thinking it and maybe Bondi is just getting ready to lay her first egg. She is 3 years old, and it is breeding season... so if it is swelling of her ovaries, then maybe it will be something like egg laying. Which at this point, would be preferable to everything else they've ran by us!

We should be given the lead results by the end of today or by tomorrow morning. And the other tests only take 1-2 days which will be a much easier wait!

Thank you all for your support and helpful guidence through all of this.

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Thanks for the update Jamie. The ladies sure do act strangely when they are gonna lay an egg don't they?

[too&me]

Keep giving us updates it would be nice if the problem was an egg.

[Jamieleigh]

Her lead test results came back this morning and they were 0.018 which my vet said was normal and really good so it's not metal toxicity. I should have the other tests back today or tomorrow.

She has been eating so well lately - better than she ever has before. Today, after running errands, we found her with a purple beak! Busted again for eating healthy berries all afternoon!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3252/2438492649_82af7150dc.jpg?v=0

[too&me]

Rosies were my first favorite type of Too, I had a Zoo friend that had one who would sit in his lap & watch TV with him after work. Way back just after graduating High school. My first Zoo job. Your baby is just perfect with the purple beak! What great news about the Zinc, yay !

[Chrissy and Flock]

That is good news... she is a beautiful birdy...

[Jamieleigh]

All of Bondi's newer test results came back perfectly normal and healthy. Which, of course, is a great thing but also leaves us with no direction really. So we are continuing with the process of elimination tactic.

I was hoping it was just Bondi getting ready to lay an egg but after talking to people who have had birds lay eggs before (Patty, who had the hilarious story of a bird actually laying the egg on her!) and looking up various websites (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2341572947_3763945516.jpg?v=0) on how those birds act before laying - I know it more than likely is not it. Bondi has no other symptoms aside from the foot tapping alone.

My vet suggested getting Bondi on the anti-inflammatory called Metacam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacam) for a small trial of 5-7 days to see if it makes a difference. We picked it up today and are going to start the treatment once she has another "flare up" where the tapping becomes bad so we can tell if it is making a difference or not.

The treatment of this is just a pea-sized drop of liquid given to her once a day. We can give it to her directly or let it soak into her favorite food.

I'm working on uploading some video clips of her toe tapping for you all to see. I should have those available to you all by the end of today or sometime tomorrow.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Her lead test results came back this morning and they were 0.018 which my vet said was normal and really good so it's not metal toxicity. I should have the other tests back today or tomorrow.

Jamie - a bird or human or any other animal should have no lead in their system. The serum lead level should be zero.

On the other hand zinc is a natural mineral in the system and the blood stream - avian normal zinc levels are 1.8. In Large Cockatoos their natural level is 2.2. Anything higher than that for zinc is toxic.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Jamie,

What are her food and water dishes made of???

[Jamieleigh]

Jamie - a bird or human or any other animal should have no lead in their system. The serum lead level should be zero.

On the other hand zinc is a natural mineral in the system and the blood stream - avian normal zinc levels are 1.8. In Large Cockatoos their natural level is 2.2. Anything higher than that for zinc is toxic.

Hi Larry,

I already threw away my personal notes from my vet so I had to look these up online as far as lead levels are concerned.

Here are where lead levels are supposed to be; the normal range of less than 0.06 (http://www.lbah.com/avian/lead.htm).

These are the dishes (http://www.cagesbydesign.com/Store/tabid/64/entity/tabid/76/entity/tabid/76/entity/tabid/76/c-36-friendly-feeder.aspx) she has in her cage;

http://www.cagesbydesign.com/Portals/0/aspdnsf/images/CATEGORY/medium/36.jpg

Taken from the Cages By Design (http://www.cagesbydesign.com) website.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

http://www.lbah.com/images/avian/lead/test6721.jpg


Jamie - that is good to know. I am having an appointment with my vet on May 7th. I will pass this on to her. I certainly could have misunderstood my vet when we had Baby's tests done. I will get back with you on this.

About food and water dishes... I only feel comfortable with SS. Certain plastics contain lead that can leach out into the food and/or water. Also crockware has been known to contain traces of lead.

[Larry, Baby and Me]

That is good info in the link you gave http://www.lbah.com/avian/lead.htm

But I sure wish vets around the country were more informed about toxins in NEW cages.

This is in part what the article said...

"Sources of lead could include; old paint, old cages, solder, stained glass, curtain weights, foil, fishing weights, batteries, linoleum, plaster, and putty."

[Jamieleigh]

I got a video uploaded of some of Bondi's toe tapping. I find it hard to recognize on here but hopefully if any of you have had experience seeing the same thing in your bird, you can shed light on this; http://youtube.com/watch?v=mvGMBZz9r4E

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Jamie,

I have asked Bill and Don to take a look at the vid.

What other symptoms does she have besides what we viewed????

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Hey Jamie,
I noticed she was doing the same thing in the shower video, lifting the leg up like that. Towards the end of this video you can see the stamping. I am also eager to see what Bill and Don have to say. She's so beautiful, Jamie.

Patty

[Don]

Pretty Rosie !! I didn't see what I would consider excessive toe-tapping in that video - what does she do when on her perch when caged ? In the birds I've sen the tapping was incessant, and almost didn't stop when human attention was offered.

Don

[Jamieleigh]

She shows no other symptoms whatsoever. She is eating better than she ever has, she's an avid flyer and is not lethargic, her weight is consistent, she is talkative and very vocal and her moods are the same as they have always been. She's super social and excitable. The toe tapping is the aboslute only symptom she has showed except for a couple nights she acted like she was hand feeding from her toys which I removed. The common theme they all had was that they had metal on them. Since I removed all 3 toys, that has not happened again.

It's really odd - she has her good days and her bad days. Some days the toe tapping never stops while other days we wonder if it was all in our heads. I'm so nervous to make something out of nothing so we have not given her any medication yet. I am waiting for a bad day to come along. Hopefully I can get better footage of her actually becoming aggitated with her feet. We haven't seen it in a while as we began to stop her from making mouth-to-foot contact when she would get frustrated.

So I guess to answer your question, Don, we have heard her tapping incontrollably at night on her perches (both in her cage and on a shower perch as we tried separating her from the other birds for a bit) while in the day time sometimes it's a good day with no signs of it while other days it's really bad and doesn't seem to stop at all from tapping. The tapping will happen anywhere - she could be perching, or just standing on a flat surface. She has done it while on our shoulders and since she lays on her back (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2421854333_c1f869f743.jpg?v=0) really well, I even tried doing that and her feet still twitched.

[Don]

Hi, well, I'll stick to my theory of it being a dietery issue. I suggest cutting out all pellets and anything else that may have dye in the food. Perhaps cut back on the protein as well, and see what happens in 2 to 3 weeks, if it's made a difference.

Don

[Evelyn]

I got a video uploaded of some of Bondi's toe tapping. I find it hard to recognize on here but hopefully if any of you have had experience seeing the same thing in your bird, you can shed light on this; http://youtube.com/watch?v=mvGMBZz9r4E


Jaimieleigh -

I've not had a toe-tapping bird, but it looks to me as though her left foot is bothering her. If she were a horse, we would say she is "off." You can see it when she walks. Could it be a sore foot, sore leg, maybe an injury to the leg? I would want to rule out anything like that. Do they x-ray birds?

My E2 will sometimes pick up a pencil or something similar in his foot and tap it on the surface. He looks like he is getting ready to direct an orchestra. He will do that for maybe a minute and then on to something. In Plato's case I don't see this as unusual or unwanted behavior or indicative of any kind of problem.

Evelyn

[Jamieleigh]

Jaimieleigh -

I've not had a toe-tapping bird, but it looks to me as though her left foot is bothering her. If she were a horse, we would say she is "off." You can see it when she walks. Could it be a sore foot, sore leg, maybe an injury to the leg? I would want to rule out anything like that. Do they x-ray birds?

Evelyn

Hey Evelyn,

Yep, we went through (http://www.happybirdy.com/mainforum_happybirdy_com/showthread.php?t=1217&page=2) all the x-rays (http://www.happybirdy.com/mainforum_happybirdy_com/showthread.php?t=1217&page=3) and her feet were thoroughly examined. They even took smears of the bottom of her left foot and nothing turned up. And although she does it a lot with her left foot, she will do the same thing with her right foot, too. It just depends on the day but she treats them like that equally. My vet thought the same as you, actually (in the beginning).

The bottom of her feet aren't red or pink, though, and they show no signs of sores. She doesn't have any perches that would hurt her feet, either. This is one of the first things we thought might have been wrong but everything has said she's healthy as can be.

I think I will go with Don's advice and continue to keep the high protein stuff out of her diet. I'm still waiting for a "flare up" where the toe tapping gets bad before putting her on the anti-inflammatory med.

Today, we took Bondi flying outside for the very first time! It was the most exciting experience... ever. I was so thrilled! She did really well and flew way more than Cressi, actually. Here are some videos; http://www.youtube.com/birdtricks

Here is a picture of her today during her flights;

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2086/2443025051_3363187ddb.jpg?v=0

We were inside a batting cage with her and will hopefully have her out in the open within a few weeks of more training, depending how she progresses. She's actually a better flier than Cressi (http://www.birdtricks.com/cressi). I'm very proud of all she did today and have no idea what to think of this toe tapping thing that seems to have an on and off switch.

[birdscomefirst]

Hi,

No It's not toe tapping.

You need to look at the entire scene. The bird has his cheek feathers fluffed, and is raising and lowering one leg. The cheek feathers fluffed is a sign of relaxation. The beginning of the video shows the bird trying to raise it's leg in order to sit on one leg the way many birds do. The fact that the other foot is flat on a surface and is not wrapped around a perch makes the bird feel slightly unsteady although not horribly so.

So..He picks up one foot, doesn't feel entirely comfy and puts it back down again.

Next, Enter the head scratching hand:-)

Same issue, the bird wants to get a head scratch, the person obliges. The bird further relaxes and wants to stand on one foot, thus raising the other one. Feeling unsteady to begin with (because of the flat surface) and then having the head touched throws the balance out again, and the bird lowers the foot after each attempt to raise it.

All entirely normal reactions.

Thanks,
Bill

[Larry, Baby and Me]

Hi Jamie,

Have you taken her off of Harrisons as well???

[Don]

""I think I will go with Don's advice and continue to keep the high protein stuff out of her diet.""

And off the pellets, imNSho they are the biggest offender in any birds diet. I fail to see what good only fixing 1/2 a problem will do.......

[Jamieleigh]

I ask that those of you who are just coming in to read this topic, read from page one and on. I have written thorough details about Bondi's complete condition - the video is not everything as I cannot catch her intense toe tapping on camera, if that is even what it is.

To completely recap her symptoms:

Day 1 - We got her back from boarding at our vet where they said they noticed nothing unusual about her behavior. She was standing on just one foot at home and we thought maybe the ride home was bumpy or perhaps Cressi bit her foot while in their cage. We examined her feet and found nothing - no pink or redness, no aggitation of the skin, and it didn't hurt when we moved it around or touched it. A few minutes later, she was doing it with both feet and had no interest in flying (she is an avid and skilled flier). We decided to take her in immediately to have her feet examined for something more than the human eye can see. We had x-rays done and so forth, even smears were taken from the bottom of her foot. All tests have come back clean and healthy.

The next few days we noticed she'd only perch on one leg and favor the other, but she did it with both feet. The vet thought it was just something with her left foot but we watched her closely at home and she treats them both the same.

Her feet began "twitching" over the next few days and it seemed cute and like normal funky cockatoo behavior, but then she began attacking her feet. We felt like it progressed into something beyond behavioral and turned into involuntary twitching of her feet and frustrating attacks. She would look at her foot first, then bring it up, then become frustrated as it twitched as it was up and then attack.

This is when we brought her into a different vet (not our usual) and she said it was simply behavioral. We then called Patty and Patty passed this issue onto all of you for help...

Since then, we have stopped any mouth-to-foot interaction so not to reinforce the attacking behavior. We changed her diet from no pellets (she was on Mazuri) to pellets again (my vet said no pellets would kill her) and now we're back to no pellets again (Don is the only one who has actually experienced this situation so I'm trusting his judgement and took pellets back out of the diet today).

I don't believe I can completely recreate the natural diet she would have in the wild, and so I am sure when all this is over, she will go back on a small amount of pellets in her diet which will be Harrison's since they are organic. However, I believe having a very minimal amount will be healthy for her as she will be getting a majority of natural fruits and veggies with little pellets. I know you don't believe in pellets, Don, and I respect that. I know you think it's more than likely stupid that I'd put my bird back on pellets, no matter how few it is, and I respect that too. But I need to make sure my birds are getting everything they need in their diet since I really can't recreate what they would eat in the wild. If there was an all natural diet product on the market that could fill my bird's needs without having any pellets involved, you bet I'd be all over it.

So, to answer your questions Larry and Don, yes I have taken her off Harrisons' as well - against the advice of my vet.

She still has not shown any symptoms for a couple days now (starting before I took the pellets away) of toe tapping but this morning she woke us up to her baby feeding on another toy. I couldn't figure out which toy it was as she stopped when I peeked around the corner - but I have a feeling it doesn't even matter as I know she will do it on any toy that's in there. I just wish I knew what it meant. She has no actual interest in baby formula and she isn't getting ready to lay an egg so I don't know where that behavior is stemming from.

She is still flying very actively (http://www.youtube.com/birdtricks) and I wonder if the extra exercise and experiences are helping with any tensions she may have in her legs.

[Jamieleigh]

Well, we just figured out that Cressi, our African Grey, is mimicking everything Bondi says (including sounds)... including the baby hand feeding noise Bondi made on the toys those 3 separate days... which means, we have no idea if it was Cressi or Bondi who made the noise this morning!

[CrystalinNC]

You really have tried everything for Bondi, and I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that you figure this thing out. I know it can be frustrating to keep running into a wall everytime you try something new...but with your eagerness and willingness to figure it out, I'm sure a solution isn't far away.

[birdscomefirst]

I am just going to throw this into the mix at this point. I have a perfectly healthy quaker parrot that "wrestles" with her foot. It was a game that was played when she was younger, her owner would grab her foot (gently) while the bird was laying on it's back playing and just play with her foot:-)

One day Yogi just picked up her own foot and started wrestling with it. She would hold her foot in her mouth and lightly shake it and play with it. Going one step further with the game playing idea; Harry, my Einstein of a cockatiel picked up the same foot play by watching Yogi.


It is not some neurological thing spreading through my flock. It is purely play. Particularly with Harry, he has learned how to wave his foot and fingers as a gesture of hello:-) he speaks up a storm and just watched Yogi do her thing and then picked it up:-)

As I say, I am not trying to discount anything that may be medical but some birds do play this way.

Thanks,
Bill

[birdscomefirst]

Hi,

On another issue.

I've nursed back birds that have had major deficits due to strokes by feeding Roudybush pellets. I'll go on record as saying this is where I disagree with some folks and we all have our own opinions.

I think pelleted diets are extremely helpful. I don't feed pellets that are colored as the dyes could be a potential problem for some birds with respect to allergies.

In the case of the better pelleted diets like Roudybush and Harrison's the formulations are excellent. Also, I get nothing to say that.

These pellets can provide a bird with many amino acids that would be lacking in even the best diets. I have personal views on these as I have witnessed birds come back from major problems and major neurological deficits that could not be explained other than by the added nutritional value of the pellets.

I would get your bird back on the Harrison's in a heartbeat.

Thanks,
Bill

[Jamieleigh]

Cressi has for sure been making the noises and not Bondi. Bondi has showed no signs and we're thinking perhaps it all was behavioral in the first place... who knows what will happen next. The entire experience has been unpredictable.

Bondi has had diarrhea since going off pellets and when my husband realized she was off of them, we did more research, talked to our vet again and came on here to read this. She's having pellets back in her diet. It's just impossible for us to do otherwise and think she will be as healthy as before. She's obviously healthy from all her tests and her symptoms have been gone for 3+ days. She's been healthier in every aspect than ever...

I understand this whole pellet issue is a very back and forth topic on this forum among everyone but I'm going to have to trust an Avian Certified Vet and her previous health scores/test results over anything else. The Harrison's goes back in her diet today.

[Dot]

Jamie, does anyone in your house smoke? Even if they go outside to smoke, they still have nicotine on their hands.

[Dot]

http://www.eclectusbreeder.com/toetapping.htm

Here is what Laurella Desborough has on her site.

[FoxersArtist]

I'm way late on this topic but just to throw my two cents in, I whole heartedly agree with Bill. We do feed all of our guys pellets but also seed, nuts and fresh foods. I'm sold on using pellets because I have been able to turn more birds around (especially concerning plucking issues) by using pellets than I could count. A variety is the best thing to feed, but I would never consider taking my guys or fosters off pellets and I will continue to wean new fosters onto a diet containing at least some pellets. All of that being said, Don has the most amazing seed mix in the world. I am sold - hook, line, and sinker. I am convinced that if seeds are going to be fed, fresh seed like Don's is most certainly the way to go.
-Anna
Hi,

On another issue.

I've nursed back birds that have had major deficits due to strokes by feeding Roudybush pellets. I'll go on record as saying this is where I disagree with some folks and we all have our own opinions.

I think pelleted diets are extremely helpful. I don't feed pellets that are colored as the dyes could be a potential problem for some birds with respect to allergies.

In the case of the better pelleted diets like Roudybush and Harrison's the formulations are excellent. Also, I get nothing to say that.

These pellets can provide a bird with many amino acids that would be lacking in even the best diets. I have personal views on these as I have witnessed birds come back from major problems and major neurological deficits that could not be explained other than by the added nutritional value of the pellets.

I would get your bird back on the Harrison's in a heartbeat.

Thanks,
Bill

[CrystalinNC]

Although I am by far not an expert...I would like to throw this out there, because I have researched until I'm blue in the face on pellets and seed...and which is better. To be honest with you, I think that the type of bird you have needs to be taken into consideration.
For instance, Cockatiels are mostly seed eaters in the wild. A pelleted diet is hard on these little guys, and can cause kidney problems, so I have opted to feed them mostly seed, with fresh foods and the occasional pellet thrown in. 80% seed, 15% fresh foods, and 5% pellets if I had to break it down
My green cheek, however, thrives on pellets and fresh foods...with just a handful of seed thrown in a week for a treat. His diet broken down, would look like this: 70% fresh foods, 25% pellets, and 5% seed.
I honestly think that the type of bird you have makes all the difference.
Now...back to the subject at hand...have you discounted the idea of Bondi perhaps just being a hormonal female? I saw that it was mentioned in the article, and you had mentioned it previously...has this somehow been discounted as a possible reason?

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

I am just going to throw this into the mix at this point. I have a perfectly healthy quaker parrot that "wrestles" with her foot. It was a game that was played when she was younger, her owner would grab her foot (gently) while the bird was laying on it's back playing and just play with her foot:-)

One day Yogi just picked up her own foot and started wrestling with it. She would hold her foot in her mouth and lightly shake it and play with it. Going one step further with the game playing idea; Harry, my Einstein of a cockatiel picked up the same foot play by watching Yogi.

It is not some neurological thing spreading through my flock. It is purely play. Particularly with Harry, he has learned how to wave his foot and fingers as a gesture of hello:-) he speaks up a storm and just watched Yogi do her thing and then picked it up:-)

As I say, I am not trying to discount anything that may be medical but some birds do play this way.

Thanks,
Bill

My quaker does this too except she does it hanging onto the bars of her cage. It does seem to be game. A weird game, but fun for her I guess.

[Jamieleigh]

Dot,

No, no one smokes in our house and the birds are in a separate air space. Not to say they don't come in the house, but just something to know for the most part. Our vet ran this by us with the thoughts of candles and insense. Bondi is also an avid bather - she takes baths 5-7 times a week in the summer months and 3-5 in the winter months.

We looked at that website (http://www.eclectusbreeder.com/toetapping.htm) in the very beginning of all this and used it as the process to rule out things such as swelling of the organs (x-rays and egg laying), stress of the nerves (smears, blood work), improper diet (switching her pellet from Mazuri to Harrisons to no pellets to all supplements back to pellets again), flight excerise (she's an avid and skilled flier and we began flying her outside rather than just indoors), and on and on...

I'm relieved so many of you chimed in about pellets and your own bird's diets.

[birdscomefirst]

I just want to add that my guys get a widely varied diet. But the pelleted formulations, are a consistent part of each of my guys diets.

What was mentioned about granivores such as cockatiels (and budgies) is valid. They are mainly seed eaters in the wild. The seed diets here though that contain mostly millet , safflower seeds and sunflower seeds do not offer the kind of variety in seed that they would get in the wild.

All my birds eat a wide variety of vegetables and fruits that are organic as well as the pellets that I mentioned before. (I don't want to sound like an advertisement, so I am not mentioning them again) Budgies on up to toos get the pelleted food added to their diets.

Thanks,
Bill

[Dot]

This bird needs to be taken off pellets. That is a serious problem with Ekkies.

[birdscomefirst]

I must have lost track of something. This thread started with a Rose Breasted Cockatoo. Dietary needs for eclectus are different. So is this a too or an Ekkie that we are talking about?

Thanks,
Bill

[Dot]

I must have lost track of something. This thread started with a Rose Breasted Cockatoo. Dietary needs for eclectus are different. So is this a too or an Ekkie that we are talking about?

Thanks,
Bill

That was my stupidity. I saw toe tapping and thought of Ekkies. My bad. But the good that comes from that is that I wrote Laurella Desborough about it. She says she has received emails from people in Autralia about their RB2 with toe tapping. In those cases it was related to pellets.

[Dot]

I know this is about a RB2, but here is an article written by a leading avian vet and a leading Eclectus breeder.

Toe Tapping from the Combined Perspectives of an
Eclectus Owner and an Avian Veterinarian

http://www.avesint.com/toetap.html


Recommendation for initial correction of Toe Tapping
Remove from the diet ALL pellets, vitamin powders, vitaminized seed mixes, vitaminized treats, spirulina and other herbal mixtures, processed human foods such as commercial bread mixes, pasta, processed cheese, pizza, TV dinners, and any food item which contains man-made vitamins, preservatives or chemicals of any kind. Read the ingredients on packages carefully to make sure that these items are effectively and completely being removed from the diet.

[Dot]

I wrote Laurella Desborough about the toe tapping and RB2. She is one of the leaders in the avian world and she is the authority on the Eclectus Parrot. Her is her reponse:

Hi Lisa and Dot,

I have been away, giving a talk on eclectus parrots in Connecticut.

NOTE: I have had emails from Australia from RB2 owners with toe tapping problems...and of course it was related to PELLETS...please see that the owners STOP the pellets and that should make a big improvement for this bird.

Laurella