Update on Dixe (possible asper) sorry it took so long! (Long post too!)

[Debz_Crew]

Hi everyone! I'm so sorry I haven't been back on the board and updated you all on Dixie and her possible aspergillosis. I didn't realize just how tired I was from being so worried and stressed over her. I spent so many hours on the computer researching that I stayed off the computer for a while. My rear felt like it had been glued to the computer chair :rolleyes: and I had gotten to the point of tears and not sleeping well worrying so much! I was a nervous mess and will not breathe a total sigh of relief until all the tests are back. I feel like a first time neurotic mother! :o I still have dark circles under my eyes. :(

We went to see Dr. Janice Raab on Tuesday. She is the Dr. who worked with Dr. Stahl, a very respected Avian Vet here in VA. She was great! I could tell she knew what she was doing. You know how you can get a feel for Vets, to know that they know? She knew all the tests to run and I felt very comfortable with her and so did Dixie. :) She handled Dixie so well that she didn't seemed overly stressed. That's a big plus. I could tell she has lots of bird experience.

She did more x-rays, which were fine. She said her lungs sounded clear too. She also did a CBC and her WBC was normal. Dr. Raab said that can be high with asper. She is not anemic and some asper birds are. Her liver and kidneys are fine also.
Two tests were a little high. Her CPK was up, which could have came from the injections that the first Vet put her on. I had no idea that injections could cause possible muscle damage/necrosis! :( She also did an electrophoresis and her alpha 1 globulin was up some, which Dr. Raab said can be from inflammation (the injections?). She said usually with asper they expect to see the gamma globulin (and another globulin?) increased, and hers were fine. We are now waiting for the bacteria/fungal culture to come back. Oh I hope that one is ok! Dr. Raab has a bird (an Amazon I think?) and she said from the tests so far, if it was her bird, and the asper test showed a .6 (which only means she's been exposed, it's in the air) that she would not treat her own bird. She said since so far, that all the other tests have come back fine, that the risk to her liver, kidneys etc, was too much to just treat since the meds can affect those organs, and that she didn't think at this point that Dixie has asper but that it can be hard to diagnose.

One thing I didn't understand completely that she said...is that the other Vet ran an Avian aspergillos galactomannan and that isn't a titer? Does anyone know what that is? From what I understand that shows antigens not antibodies, and she would rather have a side by side antibody....and that the only 2 labs in the Country that did those (Miami and the Raptor Ctr.) aren't doing those now? (New tests that use DNA are coming out?) I will call her Monday to have her explain that to me again. I have to know all the medical details and underatand them all. :rolleyes: And Dr. Raab is very good about explaining. This time I will write it ALL down.

Dixie is quieter than normal, that bothers me. Maybe she's just tired and stressed from all the Vet visits? She has had 3 blood draws in 6 weeks. That can't be good. The last Vet, that "knew so much"..should have known to at least do a WBC, and she didn't. That caused Dixie to have to have another blood draw. I feel so bad about that, so guilty. :(:( I have talked to the office mgr of that clinic, told her the panel the lab said should be run (blood work) and that was NOT offered to me, and that I think I deserve some what of a refund. Doubtful I'll get it, but I did want them to know I was not happy with the Vet who the owner of the practice said had "so much experience". I am so thankful to have found Dr. Raab! I know Dixie is in good hands now. She was well worth the drive.

I told ya this was long! Bless ya if you've read all of this! :p

Debbie

[too&me]

Sounding more & more like you might have been wasting that worry. Good for Dixie it seems like she is in good hands. Now you get de-stressed & relax a bit too.

[Uncle]

Debbie,

We can all learn a lesson or two from you. Great job!

Here are some of the things I see in your posts...

Just because a person is a vet - even a certified avian vet... doesn't mean they know their stuff.

Even a good vet might miss a key piece to the puzzle - thus pursues the wrong path.

We as parronts (bird owners) know our bird better than any one. The slightest change in behavior can indicate an illness. Sometimes those illnesses are medically difficult to diagnose. Even though there is a lot known on how to diagnose and treat avians, modern avian medicine is barely on the tip of the iceberg when it comes to full understanding.

As indicated by my signature... we parronts are totally responsible for the care and wellbeing of our feathered friends. We must not ever turn our responsibilities over to others - including vets. We must learn and know just as much as the medical professional about the particular symptoms, diagnosis, and treatments.

We must be tenacious and doggedly take control of our bird's medical care.

You and others like you are a beacon of light for the rest of us to follow.

Thank you.

[Chrissy and Flock]

I will be praying for you and your baby... I know its been a very stressful time for both of you...

[Patty, Linus and Co.]

Thanks for the update Debbie, I was wondering. There are alot of molds here. I am always worrying about the air and environmental quality. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the first vet, but happy that it caused you seek out another that you trust. Good for you! I hope you're feeling a little less stressed.

[Evelyn]

Debbie -

That's good news about Dixie. I agree with Uncle that you set an excellent example for bird owners.

Evelyn

[Chrissy and Flock]

So happy the news is good ....

[FoxersArtist]

I will continue to pray that all of Dixies results come out as good as these. If she does have asper, it sounds like maybe it's a more mild case? I hope that means a more speedy recovery. :)
-Anna

[Birdlover]

Debbie Im so glad your vet visit went well. It is such when you can find someone you have confidence in! Did she have any other thoughts as to what might be going on with Dixie?

[Debz_Crew]

Awww, thank you Uncle. I just want her to be ok and have the very best care possible, as most parronts or parents do (for human kids). I think the best thing an avian vet can do for their patients is to really listen to the client (parront). If we think something is wrong or "off"....it usually is. We know our birds better than anyone and the really good vets listen and ask a LOT of questions. This vet, Dr. Raab, made me the last appt of the day so she could spend as much time with me as needed and go home when the day was really over, not when the clock said it was time to go home. When I worked healthcare I liked to get off on time too, but would stay if a patient needed me. The vet I went to before Dr. Raab, I wouldn't let take Dixie out of the room. Dr. Raab, yes. She took her out of the room, did the x-rays and did the blood draw while Dixie was under anesthesia. Less stress on Dixie. Dixie probably didn't even know she had a blood draw, she just knew she was a little groggy from the anesthesia. They bounce back from that pretty quick, unlike humans who need a bigger dose. It's such a big relief when you find a vet you feel you can really trust. Dr. Raab has knowledge and personality. That is a big plus. ;)

Debbie,

We can all learn a lesson or two from you. Great job!

Here are some of the things I see in your posts...

Just because a person is a vet - even a certified avian vet... doesn't mean they know their stuff.

Even a good vet might miss a key piece to the puzzle - thus pursues the wrong path.

We as parronts (bird owners) know our bird better than any one. The slightest change in behavior can indicate an illness. Sometimes those illnesses are medically difficult to diagnose. Even though there is a lot known on how to diagnose and treat avians, modern avian medicine is barely on the tip of the iceberg when it comes to full understanding.

As indicated by my signature... we parronts are totally responsible for the care and wellbeing of our feathered friends. We must not ever turn our responsibilities over to others - including vets. We must learn and know just as much as the medical professional about the particular symptoms, diagnosis, and treatments.

We must be tenacious and doggedly take control of our bird's medical care.

You and others like you are a beacon of light for the rest of us to follow.

Thank you.

[Debz_Crew]

I will be praying for you and your baby... I know its been a very stressful time for both of you...

Thank you Chrissy! That means a lot to us!

[Debz_Crew]

Hi Patty, yes! much less stressed since I found a vet who knows more than the bare minimum.
From what I've read asper, is a more common infection for birds in the drier climates. I would have thought it would be otherwise. Since it's in the air, and we and our birdies breathe it everyday, stress which can lower the immune system can cause a true infection. I never knew there was so much that our birdies could be infected with. It can be scary. We have to enjoy them though, let them live and just notice anything that's not right about them. We can't put them in a bubble, although after this I'm sure tempted to put Dixie in one! :rofl:

Thanks for the update Debbie, I was wondering. There are alot of molds here. I am always worrying about the air and environmental quality. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the first vet, but happy that it caused you seek out another that you trust. Good for you! I hope you're feeling a little less stressed.

[Debz_Crew]

Debbie -

That's good news about Dixie.
Evelyn

Hi Evelyn, thank you! Still hoping the fungal culture comes back ok, though. I hope it comes back soon, the vet said it could take 7-10 days, I guess since it's the fungal culture along with it. I don't think bacterial cultures take that long. If I'd had human children I think I'd have worried myslef plumb to death by now. God knew what he was doing when he didn't give me any of those! LOL :haha:

[Debz_Crew]

I will continue to pray that all of Dixies results come out as good as these. If she does have asper, it sounds like maybe it's a more mild case? I hope that means a more speedy recovery. :)
-Anna

Hi Anna! I hope if the culture comes back positive that it is mild! At this point I think it would be, which would be such a blessing! Thank you for the prayers, they help so much! :)

[Debz_Crew]

Debbie Im so glad your vet visit went well. It is such when you can find someone you have confidence in! Did she have any other thoughts as to what might be going on with Dixie?

Hi Jill! From what she said, so far, without the cultures, Dixie is healthy. She did have a respiratory infection when this all started and I really think she had an adverse or allergic reaction to Baytril. She got better between doses (every 12 hours) but had labored breathing in the middle of the day. I finally put 2 and 2 together after she had been on the Baytril for 5 days. I stopped it and she seemed to improve, except for the slight tail bobbing, which was worse before the Baytril, I knew she had something going on in her respiratory tract when this all started, she was fluffed, shivering and tail bobbing.
Dr. Raab thinks, if it isn't asper, that she finished fighting the respiratory thing by herself (she said birds don't usually do that, but she's seen stranger things!)

Also, I had bought a wicker basket for Dixie. I was trying to think of every and anything that could possibly account for her not feeling well ( and the continued slight tail bobbing) and after I took the wicker basket away from her, the slight tail bobbing stopped. I don't know if that was coincidence, or if she had just fought off what was going on with her, but that basket is history. Dr. Raab said there could have been something on the basket that was bothering Dixie that I couldn't smell/notice. The basket came from a craft shop, and was untreated...but could have gotten some of the flowery/perfumey smell on it that I couldn't notice (that was in the craft shop).

Yesterday and today she is back to her normal talking hyper self! :yeah:

If it is asper, we have caught it early, I think.

Thank you for PMing me and checking on us, it means a lot!

All of you are wonderful and it means so much to be able to come here and have people who really understand just how much we love them and how much they mean to us! :inlove:

[Debz_Crew]

Sounding more & more like you might have been wasting that worry. Good for Dixie it seems like she is in good hands. Now you get de-stressed & relax a bit too.

Oh I hope the worry was for nothing! It does sound like it so far!
I'm trying to de-stress. I'm still waking up all night, not sleeping too well. Man, I really neeed to learn to chill! Things are what they are, and we can deal with them as they come and more so when we have definitive answers. The problem with me is, I want answers.....yesterday! :haha:

Thank you all! :)

[Uncle]

Also, I had bought a wicker basket for Dixie. I was trying to think of every and anything that could possibly account for her not feeling well ( and the continued slight tail bobbing) and after I took the wicker basket away from her, the slight tail bobbing stopped. I don't know if that was coincidence, or if she had just fought off what was going on with her, but that basket is history. Dr. Raab said there could have been something on the basket that was bothering Dixie that I couldn't smell/notice. The basket came from a craft shop, and was untreated...but could have gotten some of the flowery/perfumey smell on it that I couldn't notice (that was in the craft shop).

HI Debbie,

This caught my eye. Bill had a post about imported products being sprayed with deadly chemicals in the cargo holes of the ships to kill rodents and bugs. Most likely that wicker basket was imported from China as is "most" products now days. So - thinking it was untreated --- I think it most likely was treated.

Bill has given us many warnings about the insecticides and pesticides that are sprayed on wicker types of products.

I will ask Bill to jump in here to tell us what he knows.

I am not saying that the basket was or was not the culprit - but it is a great possibility.

[Anne-Samantha's Mom]

praying for you and Dixie!!!

[Debz_Crew]

Hi Uncle, isn't it a great "coincidence" that she got better when I took the basket away?! It's hard to tell what was on it if it came from another Country....especially China!....sorry, I want nothing to do with ANYTHING that comes from there...shoot, what the heck doesn't?! (Walmart = "Wecome to China"!!) I have seen pics of the water there, it is sludge mixed with all kinds of contaminates! (I will refrain from a further rant about China regarding what their "standards" are!)
Just like the alphabet blocks that are in kid's toys and bird's toys, that contain lead!! (And lots of other toys!) My Mom is driving herself up a wall trying to buy toys for her new great grandson ..that don't contain lead or some other poison! I think some of the baby food companies are now located in China?!!!! (Still trying to refrain from a rant and mentioning brand names here!)
And, just like the pet food industry, that killed so many dogs and cats from the melamine poisoning to 'increase the protein level"!

Bill, I am open to anything you know about what comes from China and the risks! I know cages are a biggy. Thank God Dixie's Zinc level was normal! I don't think I'll ever buy her another cage at this point?! Knowing that the one she has now is safe.....I hope!?

OK, I said no rant....I'm gonna try to not! :susp:

But, the truth be known, that basket is probably what started ALL of this!!! :mad:
Dixie would rather play with "non toys" than anything....like paper towels, water bottle lids and cut dowels to build a "nest". I hope they are safe! :confused:

[Uncle]

HI Debbie,

It looks like you have found yourself a new home with the HappyBirdy family and we have found a new friend.

You are a delight.

You can rant all you want about China products and China-Mart that is in every neighborhood across the country. You are in good company here. We all here rant a bit on that subject.

I do not want to overload you - but you do want to read the HappyBirdy home page about lead and zinc in cage paint...

www.happybirdy.com (http://www.happybirdy.com)

If you need detailed info on which cages have tested toxic and the ones that have tested safe -- please ask.

[Birdlover]

I am so glad everything seems to be going in the right direction! I too would have some big suspicions about that basket. Glad you made that connection in case it is related :)

[Debz_Crew]

Thank you, Anne! How is your baby?

praying for you and Dixie!!!

[Debz_Crew]

Hi again, Uncle. I love this board! I feel very much at home here. :)

I couldn't get some of the links to open, but there is some very good info there! TY! Which Companies sell bird cages that ARE safe? I see that Itchmo was one of the links (couldn't get it to open) ....I love! that site. I cook for my doggie but my kitty is so very picky! She eats Calif. Natural (Natura) but not the wet. I do give her some chicken and other things occasionally, when she decides it's ok to eat it. :p They don't can their own, yet. They are building a canning plant, the last I heard. (Sorry, getting OT here :rolleyes:).

Back on topic :)....Dixie likes the smaller cages, hers now is approx 30 x24x18...she likes to be able to climb in and out of it without climbing a long way up or down. She likes to drag her foot toys in and out, from top to bottom. I bought her a bigger cage but she hated it, she didn't like dropping her foot toys to the floor on the way up and down....even after weeks she would scream to go back in the smaller one, the one she had when I got her. I don't even know where it came from. I ended up selling the larger one I bought for her. She's been in the smaller one now just about her whole life. I would love to bookmark a site I know would be safe to buy another one from, when she needs it (a smaller type cage).

Thanks!

Debbie

[Debz_Crew]

I am so glad everything seems to be going in the right direction! I too would have some big suspicions about that basket. Glad you made that connection in case it is related :)

Thanks, Jill. If the cultures come back ok I'll be pretty darn sure it was that basket. It may have been the cause of the respiratory infection she had.

Debbie

[Uncle]

Hey Deb,

Several bird owners - myself included - have had our cages tested...

The Kings European line came out perfect as well as their economy line (made in China).

The cage brand that keeps coming up off-the-chart toxic is the A&E brand. The mfg is the STRONG company in China. You can't go by brand names because they are sold under many different names. Also - one HQ cage came back as off the charts with zinc. So - I suspect most HQ cages are dangerous.

So - the bottom line - if the cage comes from China - it is toxic.

[Uncle]

Hey Deb,

Several bird owners - myself included - have had our cages tested...

The Kings European line came out perfect as well as their economy line (made in China).

The cage brand that keeps coming up off-the-chart toxic is the A&E brand. The mfg is the STRONG company in China. You can't go by brand names because they are sold under many different names. Also - one HQ cage came back as off the charts with zinc. So - I suspect most HQ cages are dangerous.

So - the bottom line - if the cage comes from China - it is toxic.

[Uncle]

Blasted aliens. Double double posts.

Diane - lock up your birds - they are at it again.:beam:

[Chrissy and Flock]

Blasted aliens. Double double posts.

Diane - lock up your birds - they are at it again.:beam:

Thats funny blaming Dianes aliens and it was probably your alien that did it....:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[birdscomefirst]

Hi Debbie,

Dr. Raab is doing all the right things for Dixie. The combinations of tests that she has performed and the results coming back so far are all very positive and do lead away from Aspergillosis. I'm praying that everything comes back indicating that Asper is out!

Something to add is that sometimes respiratory symptoms can be caused when administering any medication by mouth. It is not because of the medicine but because some of the medication may be pushed into the respiratory system of the bird while it is being administered. Usually baytril is administered with a syringe the same way as a bird would be handfed. The liquid (baytril) is much thinner than a handfeeding formula and can sometimes go "down the wrong pipe" in human terms:-)

As far as items coming from China....

In general, all containers are sprayed to kill rodents and insects.

Specifically, anything made of plant material is specifically required to be sprayed with insecticides and fungicides.

If it ever was or still is a part of a plant, it was sprayed either prior to being placed in the container for shipping or while it is in the container for shipping.

Plant material means, leaves, wood, branches, vines, seed pods, and just about anything made form such products including rope and twines made from natural materials. So, things like wicker baskets, furniture or wreaths are sprayed.

Grape vine wreaths, wooden blocks, wooden toys, popsicle sticks, cheap wooden dowels are also sprayed.

Bird toys made of wood are sprayed. Bird toys that are not made of wood but that are shipped with wooden ones will be in the same container and will be sprayed.

Many bird toys made here by "do-it-yourself" bird toy makers, use items made in China, shipped here and then ,purchased in a "50 cents plus 50 cents" store to made into a bird toy. I see a lot of toys made with cheap wooden components and plant material.

China doesn't care, but the United States requires the spraying for our own safety as a way to restrict the entrance of unwanted pests.

Most of anything found in the craft section of you favorite....Blank- Mart is from China.
Most anything found in the "fifty cents plus fifty cents" store...( I ain't gettin' sued ), is from China.

It's all a danger to our birds.

While this next thought is not proven yet, I fully suspect that since the U.S. Congress was not smart enough to legislate the amounts of lead and zinc in items made for pets in the same way that they recently restricted items made for humans, that human toy parts made in China that are unsuitable for use will have holes drilled into them and be made into toys for dogs, cats and birds.

While I can't say that what is going on or has been going on with Dixie is directly related to the wicker thing you had, it is certainly very possible.

Please keep us updated. So far so good, it seems:-)

Thanks,
Bill

[Chrissy and Flock]

Most of anything found in the craft section of you favorite....Blank- Mart is from China.
Most anything found in the "fifty cents plus fifty cents" store...( I ain't gettin' sued ), is from China.

Don't blame you on that one....:D

[Debz_Crew]

Hi Uncle, thanks for the info on the cages! I'll look the company up and bookmark their site.

Hi Bill, I gave her the Baytril drop by drop, but since it seems to taste so bad to them, even flavored, I guess it's possible that it didn't go down quite right. She didn't cough or sneeze or anything. Wow, lots of very good info on things from China, and that they are sprayed. Dixie loves the wicker munch balls and the little vine type toys as food toys. I also cut up the smaller dowels and she loves to try and make a nest out of them. She hasn't shown any problems with those, she's had them a long time. I have a big bag of them so hopefully they're ok. Yes, so far so good for test results! :yeah:

Thank you both for the info and your help.

[Debz_Crew]

Most of anything found in the craft section of you favorite....Blank- Mart is from China.
Most anything found in the "fifty cents plus fifty cents" store...( I ain't gettin' sued ), is from China.

Don't blame you on that one....:D

:p How much does that equal?
I don't blame you, I don't want to be sued either. I guess I should keep my -----mart opinions to myself, I sure don't want the board to be sued. :eek: